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斯戴凡·瓦内尔（SteffanVanel），1951年出生于美国俄亥俄州。在美国及欧洲很多地方生活过。9岁时跟随意大利裔外祖母和母亲去波士顿找吉普赛茶叶算命师的经历为他打开了通往“神秘艺术”的门。

斯戴凡在探索灵性知识的道路上已经走了很多年。在夏威夷的四年期间他深入学习各种玄学并加强了灵性实践。他跟随很多老师学习卡巴拉，这个知识系统提供了解开塔罗深层智慧的钥匙。他也曾跟随著名占星师/占星作者，荣格分析师丽兹·格林学习过心理占星学，并在瑞士的荣格学院做过研究。他还通过学习业力占星学来了解灵魂在这一世中想要完成的功课和经验。

通过多元学习，斯戴凡有效地整合了心理学，占星，塔罗及卡巴拉系统，为客户提供更加全面和深层次的解读。更可贵的是他拥有特殊的才能能将这些深奥的知识用幽默通俗的方式传达给他的学生。

目前，斯戴凡居住在华盛顿州东北部的山中，除了各种灵性实践以外，还进行一些文学创作。他仍然广泛云游，提供塔罗解读，办讲座及工作坊。

以下是 Martha Quill和Steffan Vanel导师的访谈记录。（Q：Quill, V: Vanel）

Q: How do you use the information about the Kabbalah in Tarot readings?

在塔罗解牌中你是怎么使用卡巴拉的知识的？

V: All the major arcana cards are initiations into higher forms of consciousness, they are transitions form one level ofconsciousness to another on the Tree of Life. These are the macrocosmic,metaphysical realities of the Tarot, while they also have a personal,microcosmic psychological reality.

所有神秘的牌都是探知深层次认知的入口，它们就是生命树上一步步迈向意识觉悟的阶梯。这就是塔罗牌宏观的、形而上的实质，当然它同样也具有个性化的、微观的心理学特质。

But the more you are in touch with that higher metaphysical reality of the cards, it adds a whole new dimension or depth or aquality of presence as you do readings for people. Knowing the background forthe significance of the card.

随着你愈发深入地了解塔罗牌的深层次形而上特质，视野会为之一开，为别人解牌时会达到新的深度实现更高的存在质量。因为你熟知牌面重要含义的背景。

What I consider my deepest work is the Tree of Lifereading. It takes about two hours and it's nothing about past or future. Oneclient said it was like six months of therapy in two hours. It's like aKabbalistic ceremony invoking your Tree into visible appearance. On every levelfrom the way you present yourself in everyday life to your experience of thedivine at the top of your head face to face and everything in between. It showsyour inner archetypal experience in relationship to the feminine, your innerarchetypal experience in relationship o the masculine principle. Often half ofthe reading is sorting out those two positions because that usually involvesmom and dad and all your past relationships and it gives real insight intowhat's going on in your relationship life. Other positions relate to love,work, health, spirituality and so on. But it's nothing about past or future.This helps put people in touch with themselves so that they can make decisionsin their life. I'm more of a therapist and counselor than a fortune teller. Ican help with questions and decisions, but that's not my main function.

我认为我最深入的研究是生命树的解读，大概会持续两小时之久，不问过去与未来。有位客户说就好像把六个月之久的治疗浓缩到两个小时中。那就好像是一种卡巴拉仪式，将你的生命树激发成可见之物，从你日常生活的个人表达，到头脑深处的神圣经验，面面俱到，无一不漏。它展示出同阴性气质和阳性气质相关的内心典型经验。一般将这两种位置筛选排列出来，就要耗费一半的解读时间，因为往往要涉及你的父母和所有过往的关系，最终会彻底看透你的生活关系。其他位置还包括爱情、职业、健康、精神等。但这都同过往与未来无关。这样可以帮助人们同自我沟通，进而为自己的人生做出选择。与其说是算命者，我更像是个治疗师和咨询师。我可以解答你的疑问，帮你做出选择，但这并不是我的主要功能。

Q: What is your overall philosophy?

你的整体哲学是什么？

V: I believe that the purpose of life is for God to become known to himself.

我相信生命的目的在于使上帝认知自我。

I believe we are here to evolve into the divine.The Astrology shows the specific karmic lessons your soul agreed to work on andgrow through in this lifetime based on it's previous life karma.

我相信我们来到这里是为了进一步走入神圣。占星学展示了你的灵魂意欲研习的特定业力课程，并且基于前世业力在此生中日益精进。

Personally I don't think the world has a chance unless we get off the blame game. And accept that what we are going throughhere is a world in which every action has an equal and opposite reaction andthat is not just on a physical level, but also on an emotional, mental andspiritual level. Which in the east is called karma and in Christianity isreferenced by the phrase "as you sow, so shall you reap" and alsorelates to the belief in reincarnation. Until we realize that there is karmahere and that everything is a lesson, it's always going to be somebody else'sfault - your parents your spouses, your neighbor's next door, the government,another race, another nation, and we'll never have anything other than greed,hostility and anger that is so prevalent in the world. For example the storyPrincess Diana and Prince Charles. I've written a not yet published book abouttheir Astrological Karma. I've seen that their story is not very different thanmany couples I've counseled. The difference is that every detail of theirrelationship had a global audience. Some people blame Charles for theirproblems, some blame Diana. There are unfortunate distortions in the way peopleapply the ideas of karma. Until we can get off the blame game, we are going tobe caught in the victim/victimizer program. If you don't want to be a victimyou have to be a victimizer and if you don't want to be a victimizer, you haveto be a victim. And there is only one way out and that is through the positiveside of the planet Neptune. Which is unconditional love for yourself andothers, total forgiveness for yourself and others, spiritual faith, trust andsurrender, where there are no victims and victimizers, but just all usfrightened little boys and girls doing the best we can. Charles and Diana bothhad their own stuff and they totally deserved each other.

从我个人角度讲，我觉得这个世界已经没有机会了，除非我们停止彼此问责，并接受我们所处的世界中，每一个行为都是有正反两面反应的，不仅是物理层面，也包括情感、思维和精神层面。在东方，这就被称为业力，而基督教也有类似的表述“人种的是什么，就会收获什么”，同样也和转世的信仰有关系。直到当我们明白，这一切冥冥中自有业力作用，每件事情都是一宗功课，我们才不会永远认为一切都是他人的错误——你父母的、配偶的、邻居的、政府的、其他种族或国家的，才不会仅仅心存贪婪、敌意与愤怒，如同今日世界所盛行的那样。好比戴安娜王妃与查尔斯王子的故事，我手头有本还未出版的著作谈及了他们的占星学业力分析。我觉得和很多找我咨询的夫妻相比，他们的故事并没有什么显著的不同。区别仅在于他们生活的每个细节都是在整个世界的眼皮下展开的。有些人指责查尔斯应该为这段不幸的关系负责，有些人则觉得戴安娜不对。人们应用业力这一理念时，往往扭曲了真实含义。直到我们停止不断问责，才会跳出加害者/受害者的逻辑——如果你不想成为受害者，你就得施害于他人，如果你不忍施害于人，就将成为受害者。要想摆脱这一魔咒，唯一的出路就是海王星的积极影响。那就是无条件地爱自己与他人，彻底地宽恕自己与他人，精神上拥有信仰、信任，无所防备，这样才不会有受害者与加害者，只有我们这些敬畏的男孩和女孩在尽力而为。查尔斯和戴安娜两人各有差池，彼此互不相欠。

That's how I use Astrology. Astrology shows you what you agreed to work on, and it shows you which lessons are hitting you now.But to just show you what your lessons are and what is hitting you can bedepressing. The Tarot gives more of an indication of how your are doingspiritually and psychologically.

我就是这么把握占星学的。占星展示的是你准备研习的课程，还能看出当前对你影响最大的是哪门课。但光告诉你有哪些课、哪些当前最有用，这可能会有些打击人。塔罗就会给出更多的暗示，告诉你精神上、心理上如今课业修炼得怎样了。

People often expect Astrologers to tell them what to do in certain situations. Personally with Astrology there's no way for youranswer not to be flavored by your personality or opinion and to make thatchoice or decision for someone I actually feel is almost unethical. Now personallyI can use Astrology to show you why you are in the boat you are in and whatyour lessons are and I can look at two charts and give I think pretty amazinginsight into the karmic setup between you, what you knew you would do to eachother, positively and negatively and we can look at the percent of difficultand positive aspects but I would never use that to say you should or shouldn'tbe with this person because who I am to say what it is that's really in thebest interest of your soul. If someone really wants an answer or has aquestion, I will let them ask the cards. One card is for yes, one is for no. Ihave faith in the objectivity of the answers. It's you asking Spirit directlyfor your own higher guidance. You're not asking me.

人们常常盼着占星师能告诉他们在某些情形下应该如何做。对于个人来说，占星不可能给出不受个性或观点左右的答案，我也觉得替某人做出相应的选择或决定实际上也不道德。从我个人角度讲，我可以用占星告诉你如今身处何境，你需要研习的课程是什么，我也可以看着两副出生图，讲一些很有意思的分析，告知你前世今生的设置，你处理关系的方式，积极的和消极的，以及困难与乐观部分各自的比例，但是，我绝不会通过这些得出结论，说你应该或者不应该和此人在一起，因为我要定义的那个人是你灵魂之最佳利益所在。如果有些人执意要个答案，或疑问重重，我会让他们去问塔罗牌。一张代表是，一张代表否，我有信心答案是客观的。是你在直问灵魂，为自己探求更高的指引。你不是在问我。

In some ways a Tarot reading is like dream work. A dream is a symbolic communication fromthe unconscious through images and symbols and a reading is also a symboliccommunication from the unconscious. to the conscious through images andsymbols. The symbols involved have a coherent system of meaning. To interpreteither dreams or the cards you have to listen to what the symbols are saying.It's a symbolic language.

某些层面来讲，塔罗解牌就像解梦。梦也是一种无意识通过图像与符号发起的象征性的交流，解牌也是由无意识到理性觉悟的象征交流，同样是通过图案与符号。相关的符号是一套完整的含义机制。无论解梦还是解牌，你都要倾听那些符号的声音。这就是种符号语言。

People ask me if you have to have a gift to readTarot. I tell them it takes two things. Faith that it works and a willingnessto listen. I started doing readings right off the bat that were accurate. Theytook four hours because I was still learning the language. I had to read thebook with every card.

人们会问我解塔罗牌是不是需要天赋。我告诉他们需要两点。坚信它奏效，情愿去倾听。具备了这两点，我马上就开始解牌了。一上来就整整花了四个小时，因为我还在学习这门语言，读每张牌时都要去看书。

One reason why I ask questions of the client in a Reading is because a chart will show you a pattern of energies, but it will notshow you the level of consciousness of that individual. Some people who have ahigher level of consciousness will play out a pattern completely differentlythan someone of a lower level of consciousness. I would say there's no way youcan specifically predict what someone is going to experience out of thisenergy. So I ask a lot of historical questions to determine how these energieshave been played out by this particular person in the past. I've seen famousAstrologers do what I would consider significant damage and create majorconfusion by saying things off a chart without checking it out first. Theclient is vulnerable. They don't know what it means and they trust you. Butoccasionally a client will say he just said back to me what I said to him. Eventhough people during the reading accept and agree what it is I'm telling them,afterwards they may go back into that river in Egypt we call denial becausethey don't want to stay with that confrontation of themselves. At times theymay have to reject me to reject the information. I understand and sympathizewith this. I don't enjoy it but I don't take it personally anymore. Fortunatelythis occurs very seldom. Most people who come to me and are willing to pay mewhat I charge for a reading aren't there not to hear what it is I tell them.Most people are very appreciative of what I say. People may be a bitoverwhelmed with all of the information I give them, but thata is why I taperecord the Reading, so they can digest it later.

之所以我在咨询中会询问客户问题，是因为出生图虽然展示出一种能量模式，但不会透露个人意识的层级。意识觉悟高低迥异的人，展示出的模式也是完全不同的。我要说，你无法精确预测一个人拥有这样的能量后到底会经历什么。所以我会问很多有关过去的问题，来确知这个人在过往的岁月里是如何利用这些能量的。我也看到过一些著名的占星师，不经确认就对出生图妄下断语，我觉得这是很大的伤害，会带来深远的困惑。客户都是很脆弱的。他们不知道这些意味着什么，他们信任你。不过偶尔有些客户会说他对我是言听计从，尽管咨询中客户认同并接受我的讲述，也许扭头他还是会像鸵鸟一样埋头拒绝，因为他们不愿面对自己。时不时地，他们会拒绝面对我，以此来逃避这些信息。我很理解，也很同情他们。虽说也会不高兴，但我不会再往心里去。好在这种情况并不多见。很多来找我并且愿意出钱让我解牌的人，不会对我的话充耳不闻的。大多数人都很欣赏我的讲解。可能我提供的信息多少会有些让人不知所措，因此咨询时我会录音，这样他们回去还可以再慢慢消化。