http://s6/mw690/001V0Z1fgy6IOT417h315&690Vanel导师访谈录（一）" TITLE="【塔罗大师】Steffan Vanel导师访谈录（一）" />

斯戴凡·瓦内尔（SteffanVanel），1951年出生于美国俄亥俄州。在美国及欧洲很多地方生活过。9岁时跟随意大利裔外祖母和母亲去波士顿找吉普赛茶叶算命师的经历为他打开了通往“神秘艺术”的门。

斯戴凡在探索灵性知识的道路上已经走了很多年。在夏威夷的四年期间他深入学习各种玄学并加强了灵性实践。他跟随很多老师学习卡巴拉，这个知识系统提供了解开塔罗深层智慧的钥匙。他也曾跟随著名占星师/占星作者，荣格分析师丽兹·格林学习过心理占星学，并在瑞士的荣格学院做过研究。他还通过学习业力占星学来了解灵魂在这一世中想要完成的功课和经验。

通过多元学习，斯戴凡有效地整合了心理学，占星，塔罗及卡巴拉系统，为客户提供更加全面和深层次的解读。更可贵的是他拥有特殊的才能能将这些深奥的知识用幽默通俗的方式传达给他的学生。

目前，斯戴凡居住在华盛顿州东北部的山中，除了各种灵性实践以外，还进行一些文学创作。他仍然广泛云游，提供塔罗解读，办讲座及工作坊。

以下是 Martha Quill和Steffan Vanel导师的访谈记录。（Q：Quill, V: Vanel）

Q：What makes youdifferent from other astrologers?

是什么使你在占星学家中与众不同？

V：Three things:

三点：

1. Almost no one uses the Hilarion information. It's absolutely incredibleand accurate information.

1. 几乎无人利用了赫莱瑞恩的信息。那绝对是精彩而准确的信息。

2. The way I combine it with the Tarot. Astrology will show the lessonsyour soul agreed to go through and work on in this life. Then you can look atthe transits and it shows what's hitting you now. But with astrology by itselfyou can't see how you're doing on the lessons, what growth you've achievedhaving worked on them. After these many years, you would expect to have madesome progress. That's what I can see in the cards. The best analogy is that thechart is the curriculum you signed up for in this life, the transits are yourcurrent exams and the reading is your report cards.

2. 我将这一信息同塔罗整合起来。占星学展示的是你的灵魂准备学习和攻克的人生课程。然后你再看看行进，你就会发现哪些正在影响你。但仅靠占星，你看不到自己人生课程的完成状况，付出后有何进步。毕竟这么多年来，你觉得自己总归会有点成就。而靠塔罗牌我就能看到这些。打个比方形容二者关系，出生图就像你为人生选定的课程，行进就是你眼前要应付的考试，而塔罗则是考试的计分。

3. No reader can help you to gain insight into anything they don'tunderstand themselves. Apart from whatever knowledge or techniques or symbolsystem an Astrologer or Tarot reader uses, you're still going to be dependenton the quality of consciousness and insight and experience of the reader. I'vehad a pretty intense life. By age 40, I experienced Pluto conjunct Mars, Venus,my Mid Heaven, Mercury, my Sun, Saturn, Neptune, my Ascendant. That's prettyunusual and intense. Most of that was by age 28. A lot of Plutoniandeath/rebirth. Pluto makes sure things are serving the higher self and love andnot the lower self and fear. It brings the unconscious into consciousness.

3. 倘若自己都不了解自己，这样的人是绝不会靠塔罗帮你解读出什么深刻信息的。除了占星学家或塔罗解牌人所具备的知识、技巧或符号体系，你终究还是得依靠解牌人自身认知与经验的质量。而我可谓阅尽沧桑。40岁的时候，冥王与火星，金星，中天，水星，太阳，土星，海王星，上升星座合相，这绝对很不寻常而且影响强大，一般来说应该是在28岁。很多冥王星式的终结-重生。冥王星确保事情都实现了高层次的热爱，而非低层次的恐惧。它将无意识带入了清醒自知。

Q: How does theTree of Life tie into Astrology?

生命树是怎样同塔罗连接起来的？

V: The Tree of Lifeis like a skeleton or structure which shows the way in which the universe iscreated from pure spirit down to physical form through 10 phases correspondingto the numbers 1 through 10. But it's also the key to the deeper meanings ofthe Tarot cards. All 78 tarot cards correlate to the Tree of Life in one way oranother. There are also Astrological correspondences to the position on theTree of Life and to the Tarot cards. So it's one unified system. Tree of Lifeis the skeleton and Astrology and Tarot fill out the skeleton.

生命树就像一副骨架或结构，展示了宇宙是怎样一路由纯粹精神构造出，直至经历10个阶段造就物质形式的，对应着1至10这十个数字。它同样是塔罗牌深层次含义的核心要素。所有的78张塔罗牌都以一种或多种方式同生命树产生联系。塔罗牌在生命树上的位置和塔罗牌的内容也有着占星学的含义。所以说这是一个整体。生命树是架构，占星与塔罗是架构上的填充。

Q: Where did theTarot come from?

塔罗牌的来源是什么？

V: We know throughthe work of people like Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell that myths have symbolicmeaning even if they are not historically accurate. The myth of the Tarot'sorigin is that when the sacred libraries of Alexandria, Egypt, were burned tothe ground....this was a tragic event because these libraries were said tocontain all the ancient wisdom and secret knowledge of the Mystery Schools ofthe Mediterranean at the time.... there was a secret meeting of all the wisepeople of that time and the purpose of the meeting was to devise a way to securetheir knowledge, a way to insure that their knowledge could survive what theysaw as the coming dark ages. They came up with the idea of putting theirknowledge into symbolic pictures on cards. They knew they would be used forlower purposes, for gambling and fortune telling, but for anyone who knew thekey, they would be able to unlock all the wisdom and knowledge that was hiddenin the cards. The symbolic signifgance is that the Tarot provides profoundinsight into the inner workings of the universe and into the working of ourselves in relation to that universe. The key to this knowledge is discovered inthe relationship between the Tarot and the Tree of Life.

我们从卡尔·荣格和约瑟夫·坎贝尔的著作中了解到，即便神话并非精准的史实，它们都是有象征含义的。塔罗起源的神话解释是，当埃及亚历山大港的圣殿图书馆被夷为平地的时候……这是个悲惨的事件，因为那些图书馆据说收藏着当时所有古代智慧结晶与地中海神话学派的神秘知识……当时所有的智者聚集起来开了一个会，旨在构思出一种方法来保存他们的知识，让这些知识可以免遭即将到来的黑暗时代的伤害。他们想到一个办法，将所有的知识设计到一套画着象征图案的牌中。他们知道这副牌可能会被大材小用，诸如赌博或算卦之类，但了解关键信息的人总会解读出其中深藏的智慧与知识。塔罗的象征重要性在于塔罗为宇宙的内部运作提供了深刻的洞见，也包括解读了我们与宇宙的关系和自身的运转。这一知识的关键正是存在于塔罗和生命树的关系中。

Q: What is the secret?

机密到底是什么？

V: The secret isknowing that there is this correspondence. Paul Foster Case says that the Tarotare images created by master minds who knew that the symbols and picturesthemselves would evoke awareness and consciousness without even a rationalunderstanding.

机密就是要明白这里是有联系的。保罗·福斯特·凯斯讲过，塔罗是大师创造的图案，他们深知这些象征与图案本身就可以激发认知与觉悟，甚至不需要经过理性的解读。

Nonethelessseeing that in the context of the dynamics of the Tree of Life is even deeperand gives an incredibly coherent and unified system of understanding.

不过，从生命树的动态情境来看，含义更加深远，形成了一套紧密整合的理解体系。

There are 2 kinds of books on the Tarot: those that say a lot and no one can understandthem and those that say nothing.

关于塔罗的书可以分成两类：洋洋洒洒一大本却没人能看懂的，还有惜墨如金的。

I have some unique insights into the Tarot system and I have some pretty unique ways ofapplying that knowledge. Because all the books that teach Kabbalistic Tarothave very little or nothing in terms of actual application of that knowledgebesides meditations. I think I present that knowledge in a way that people canunderstand it.

我对塔罗体系有些独特的看法，使用这套知识也自有一套手法。因为从实践角度或思维方式讲，针对这套知识，讲授卡巴拉塔罗的书基本都贡献有限，我觉得我能以一种容易理解的方式给大家讲解这套知识体系。