Phil: Right, right. Was that the connection, the reason to go to India?

Phil:是啊。那种联结是去印度的原因吗？

Leslie: Well, it was just sort of one of the things that people were doing at that time. It was sort of seeking the spiritual, I think; I don't know if the Beatles had gone yet, it wasn't a specific thing, but that was one of the things to do.

So, it was in August and a friend of mine, a colleague of mine said he was coming up to York University in Toronto. I was outside of Toronto at another engineering university, and he was coming up to York to use the computer. I had heard that there was a woman here, whose name was Laura Rice, and that she was a student of Carl Rogers. And she believed that curiosity was important, and that people in therapy were motivated by curiosity to explore themselves. I don't know if you know this, but a lot of behaviorists had come from South Africa, people like Lazarus and Wolpe and a lot of behavioral therapists, and so the University of South Africa where my wife trained was highly behavioral, and I had read a fair bit on my own, and I thought behaviorism was silly, and...

Leslie: 这只是那时人们所做的事情之一。我想，是寻找精神寄托。我那时不知道甲壳虫乐队已经不在了，其实没什么特别的，只是那时做的事情之一。

到8月份我一个朋友和同事说他要去多伦多的约克大学。我在多伦多以外的另一所工程院校，他则要去约克大学。我听说那儿有位Laura Rice女士，Carl Rogers的学生，她认为好奇心十分重要，治疗中应激发起来访者探索自我的好奇。我不知道你是否清楚，许多行为主义者像Lazarus、Wolpe等从南非过来，我妻子在南非读过的大学是高度的行为主义化，我自己也读了很多，我觉得行为主义很愚蠢……

Phil: (laughing)
Phil:（笑）

Leslie: ...and psychoanalysis was sort of much too dark, and sort of pathological in its view, and it didn't appeal to me, the whole unconscious motivation perspective, and it seemed all so dark, so I was reading existentialism and I believed in choice and awareness, so I went to talk with this woman here at York University who all I knew about was that she thought curiosity was important.
Now my going to India was based on the fact that also from an English educational system I thought I 'd have to start all over again - start a BA in year one. I was just completing my masters, and I said I would drop out and come back and re-enter and study psychology; I'd sort of gotten that far. I'd called up a university and they said I'd have to do X number of years and so on to get a psychology degree.

So I came and I knocked on this woman's door, and it was about the 15th of August, and twenty days later I was enrolled in the graduate program at York University.

Leslie: ……而精神分析太只注重人的阴暗，是病理学的观点，整个无意识动机的学说我都不喜欢，太阴暗了，所以我读存在主义的书，相信意识和选择，于是我去约克大学见Laura Rice女士，而我所知道的全部就是她认为好奇心很重要。

Phil: What did she do?

Phil:她做什么？

Leslie: Well, actually that was a bit of an exaggeration; I was enrolled in a make-up year for a graduate program and subject to my completing the make-up year I'd go straight into a Ph.D. cuzz I already had a master's. And it was really interesting, because it was a new school that had just started and it was very open and they had a number of professors who had come from Berkeley and a number from the University of Chicago, where Laura Rice had come from. There was a model from some other university, I think it was the University of Illinois, which was actually a very hard-nosed psychology department then; they took people in with masters' from the hard sciences. Somehow there was a combination of factors; the director of graduate studies had come from Illinois, and there were a number of these more radical professors, and they thought, "Oh well," and if I wanted to go into psychology, that would be acceptable. It was driven by the fact that I had very good grades and a very good academic record and so on. So, totally serendipitously, I mean by following the regular channels they had told me that I'd have to do a number of make-up years, and I'd decided that I'd drop out, and I just went and knocked on this woman's door. And somehow within ten days my life was changed.

Leslie: 说来有点夸张；我注册补修一年研究生课程以便之后直接读博士，因为我已经有硕士学位。有趣的是，那是一所新学校，很开放，有许多教授来自Berkeley，也有来自芝加哥大学，Laura Rice就来自那里。他们用了其他大学的一个模式，我想是Illinois大学，那儿的心理系很讲求实际，接受有理工科硕士学位的学生。这些加起来：研究所的主管来自Illinois，那里还有一些更激进的教授，如果我想进心理系，应该会被接受的。我的学业成绩很好。很意外的，他们通知我要补修几年，那我就决定放弃了。于是我只是去探访Laura Rice女士，不想10天之内我的命运就变了。

Phil: Well, two things intrigued me. One is that you must have gone through a really big decision-making process to conceive of having to start all over again, but to be willing to do that...

Phil:有两件事让我很感兴趣。一件是你需要做出重大决定来重新开始，而你很愿意如此……

Leslie: Yes...
Leslie: 对……

Phil: ...and then on the other hand this thing about choice and actually meeting and talking with Laura - I'm intrigued by what happened in that interaction with her; it seems rather magical.

Phil: ……关于这决定的另一方面是会见Laura女士——你见她时发生了什么，好像很神奇。

Leslie: Yes, yes. Well, she told me later she was trying to figure out if I was one of these flaky engineers that had been smoking a lot of dope...

Leslie: 是的。她说她想弄清我是不是那些吸麻醉香烟的古怪的工程师之一……

Both: (laughter)
Both:（笑）

Leslie: ...or whether I was substantially intellectual. I had strong mathematical skills, and she was a psychotherapy process researcher. She had worked with Rogers, who had developed process research, and she had developed a vocal quality scale, where you could actually listen to people's voices, both client and therapist, and she was trying to track the moment-by-moment influence of people's vocal quality or particular kinds of therapist actions on client vocal quality, and a few other variables. What you need in there is to track something in a statistical manner, moment by moment, which was called stochastic processes. Sort of, what's the probability if I do this, that you will, in the next moment, do that? That kind of thing. I had a strong mathematical background, and she saw the possibility of me working on that. She had just come up to York University from the University of Chicago, and she was a new professor starting the counseling and development program, and I went in saying, "I really like working with people, and I think I'm good with people. I don't really know much about sick people, so I don't want to go into clinical...counseling sounds right." It was because I had a very strong academic record, and they decided that they would take me. You know, that was the interaction, the combination that I fit into a vision that she had of something that she wanted to do.

Leslie: ……或者我是不是够聪明。我数学很好，而她研究心理治疗过程。Rogers做了过程研究，她跟Rogers一起工作过，她做音质测量，你可以听治疗师和来访者的声音，她试图跟踪双方音质的瞬间互动、或者治疗师具体行为对来访者音质的影响、以及其他类似变量。需要做的是用统计学方法时时刻刻记录随机过程。类似于，如果我这样做，那么下一刻你那样做的可能性多大？就是这种。我数学背景很强，她看中我可以做这件事。她刚从芝加哥大学到约克，是刚开始做咨询和发展研究的新教授，于是我说：“我喜欢跟人打交道，也擅长打交道。我对病人所知不多，我不想进临床领域……咨询听起来更好。”由于我的学术背景好，他们决定要我。靠那次交流，我进入她想做的事的视野。

Phil: So, it was the sense that you had an opportunity, that there was a place for you there, that there was an open door.

Phil:你感觉你得到了一个机会，有了一个给你的位置，一扇门打开了。

Leslie: Right. And so I just grabbed it, ya know. And it was amazing, because one of the things I say in retrospect, if I'd gone to the majority of other schools in North America at the time, I would have probably not flourished or I'd have found it incompatible. You know, all I knew was that she thought curiosity was important. Many schools were still behavioral or analytic and I wouldn't have fit into either of those, but I found a place that was highly humanisticly oriented, and she was highly humanisticly oriented.

Leslie: 对。我抓住了机会。真令人惊讶，回头来看，如果我当时去了北美的其它学校，我不会有后来的发展，可能很快发现不合适。而我所知道的一切不过是她认为好奇心很重要。当时很多学校仍是行为主义的或分析导向的，那对我都不合适，但我居然找到了一个高度人本取向的地方，她是高度人本取向的。

Phil: I notice you're still there.

Phil:而且到现在你仍然在这里。

Leslie: Yes; I left for twelve years, and I taught at UBC, in Vancouver. And then I came back, and in some ways I actually took her position after she retired.

Leslie: 对；我离开过12年，在Vancouver的UBC任教，然后回来。可以说在她退休后我接替了她的位置。

Phil: And would you characterize the program in which you teach now as continuing those humanistic, experiential lines?

Phil:你会认为你现在讲授的课程在延续人本、体验之路吗？

Leslie: I'm instrumental now in defining it as integrative. But that's because we believe it's important that students get an exposure to psychodynamic and cognitive. But the core of the program is still humanistic. It's not called that; it's difficult to survive in academia now as a humanist.

Leslie: 我谨慎地把它定义为综合。因为我们认为接触心理动力和认知对学生很重要。不过这课程的核心是人本的。只不过不叫这个名字，现在的学术环境下单纯的人本主义者难以生存