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图1 《建筑创作》对话建筑大师Frank Gehry

 

【编者按】

2012年3月27日在北京市建筑设计研究院方案创作工作室(BIAD UFO)，《建筑创作》杂志执行主编王舒展、期刊

部副主任谢华与建筑大师Frank Gehry, 他的合伙人Meaghan Lloyd女士，以及BIAD建筑师王丹妮展开了短暂的对

话交流。其实83岁的盖里大师前晚才抵达北京，27日全天排满了采访与活动。我们是趁他中间休息的15分钟冒昧

打扰，但他却十分友好的与我们交谈。实录如下：

 

 

 

Wang Danni: This morning a camera guy asked Mr. Gehry: “Can you sit on the ground? Can you sit this way? Can you move there? …” I was very angry so I asked him if he has anyone over 80 in his family, although Mr. Gehry looks really young and energetic for his age.

 

王丹妮：今天早上有个摄影师不停的问盖里大师：“您能坐在地上拍照吗？您能这样拍照吗？您能移到那边拍照吗？….”。我非常气愤，我问他：“你家里有80多岁的老人吗？”虽然盖里大师看上去很年轻而且活力很大。

 

Frank Gehry: Oh, it’s fine. He wants the perfect shots. He’s very careful. He’s good!

 

盖里：哦，没关系。他只想拍出完美的照片。他很用心。他很棒！

 

Frank Gehry: What percentage of building in China is designed by Chinese architects compared to foreign architects?

 

盖里：中国百分之几的建筑是中国建筑师设计的？

 

Wang Shuzhan：I would say probably 99%. If you only look at those landmarks in Beijing or Shanghai, you may think many buildings in China are designed by foreign architects. But China is so huge, if you look at the country as a whole, you will find most buildings are still designed by local architects or even non-professionals.

 

王舒展：我觉得该有99%吧。因为你如果只看到北京上海这样大城市中的地标建筑，你会认为中国大量建筑都是外国建筑师设计的。但是中国非常大，如果把中国当做整体看待，你会发现中国的建筑基本都是本国建筑师甚至非专业建筑师设计的。

 

 

 

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图2 弗兰克•盖里来到北京巿建筑设计研究院方䅁创作工作室

Xie Hua: I learned you’ve been working with artist Cai Guoqiang on Quanzhou Museum of Art. How is that project going?

 

谢华: 我听说您在与艺术家蔡国强合作泉州美术馆的设计。那个项目进展如何？

 

Frank Gehry: Oh, I have not. I just went one time to advise him as a friend.

 

盖里：哦，我没有做。我只是作为朋友给他提过一次建议。

 

Xie Hua: OK, so you were not really designing the museum. But you are a good friend of him.

 

谢华: 就是说您并没有真正设计那个美术馆。但您跟蔡国强是好朋友。

 

Frank Gehry: Yes. I designed his house in New Jersey. We are trading art for design. I’m doing the design, and he’s giving me the paintings.

 

盖里：是的。我设计了他在新泽西的住宅。我们拿艺术和设计作交换：我给他出设计，他给我绘画作品。

 

Frank Gehry: I resisted calls from China to do work here. Because of my age, I thought it’s too far and the culture may be difficult to understand, and the politics is complicated. So I thought it’s better to be younger people to do that. But I became interested in NAMOC because I love the art. When I went to the museum the first time, the works there on display are incredible. I’m a sucker for art and music!

 

盖里：我拒绝来自中国的项目邀请。因为对于我的年纪而言，我觉得中国太遥远了，那里的文化恐怕难以理解，加上政治很复杂。所以我认为年轻一些的人去做更好。但我对中国美术馆的项目很感兴趣，因为我热爱艺术。我第一次去参观中国美术馆时就被那里的展品吸引了。我是艺术与音乐迷！

 

Xie Hua: You know, I lived in Ohio for a few years. Actually I was quite shocked to find three of your buildings there: one in Cleveland (Peter B. Lewis building, Case Western Reserve University), one in Cincinnati (Academic Health Center, University of Cincinnati), and one in Toledo (Center for the Visual Arts). Since Ohio is a Midwestern state, pretty conservative compared with California or New York City. So why would they select your avant-garde design? 

 

谢华: 我曾在美国俄亥俄州住过几年。我当时很惊讶的在那里发现您的三栋建筑：一个在克利夫兰，一个在辛辛那提，一个在托莱多。因为俄亥俄属于中西部，相对加州和纽约是很保守的。他们为何会选择您很前卫的设计呢？

 

Frank Gehry: The one in Cleveland was the Peter Lewis, the patron. He has always liked my work. So when he gave money to the museum, they made them hire me. Toledo was a selection committee like here, but it wasn’t a competition, just an interview and they picked me. And Cincinnati, it wasn’t a competition either. It was Dr. Harrison who is in charge of the cancer research. I met him at a dinner. He knew my work and asked me if I would do it. So it was three different reasons.

 

盖里：克利夫兰那个楼是Peter Lewis捐赠给大学的。他一直都喜欢我的作品，所以当他出钱建博物馆时就指定了我。托莱多那个项目是有个评审委员会，就像美术馆这个，但不是竞赛。只有个面试，他们就选了我。辛辛那提那个也不是竞赛。当时哈里森医生负责那里的癌症研究。他了解我的作品，于是我们共用晚餐时他问我是否想为他们设计。因此三座建筑的起因各不相同。  

 

Meaghan Lloyd: Ohio, of the Midwestern states, tends to be more adventurous in their art and architecture. I don’t know why. But it is interesting because Germany also has a lot of Frank Gehry buildings in Europe. And there is a high percentage of Germany Americans in Ohio. I don’t know if there is a coalition.

 

劳埃德：在中西部的州里，俄亥俄算是在艺术和建筑上敢于尝试的。我不清楚为什么。但有趣的是德国有很多盖里的建筑，而俄亥俄德裔美国人的比例很高。我不知道这直接有没有联系。

 

Frank Gehry: We are designing the expansion of the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but it’s all underground. It’s an interesting project trying to make the sculptural characters stay underground. They are looking for money now.

 

盖里：我们在设计费城美术馆的扩建，但全部在地下。这是个很有趣的项目，将那些雕塑性的元素都放在地下。他们目前正在筹款。

 

Xie Hua: Please tell us about your major concept for the National Art Museum of China.

 

谢华: 请您讲解一下中国美术馆方案的主要概念。

 

Frank Gehry: I can’t. We are not allowed. But I respect art a lot, so that’s why I was excited about it. And I think the explosion of Chinese art in the world is amazing, very exciting.

 

盖里：我不能。不允许我们透露。但我非常尊重艺术，这也是我为何对这个项目如此兴奋。我觉得中国艺术在全世界的爆发是很棒的，很令人兴奋的。

 

Meaghan Lloyd: The goal was also to look at the past references in China but create something for the 21^st century: brand-new, but imbedded with all the culture that has come before.

 

劳埃德：我们的目标是通过研究中国的历史文脉去创造21世纪的建筑：全新的，而又嵌入于之前存在的所有文化中。

 

Xie Hua: We learned you guys did a lot of research on that, a lot of study models.

 

谢华: 我们听说你们为竞赛做了大量研究，大量的工作模型。

 

Frank Gehry: Yes, we spent a lot of time.

 

盖里：是的，我们花费了很多精力。

 

Wang Danni: This morning when Mr. Gehry was getting the interviews, he kept telling people the reason he doesn’t do competitions is that: He can’t just design something in a closed office without constantly talking to the client, talking to the local people.

 

王丹妮：今天早上盖里先生接受采访时几次提到他不愿做竞赛的原因：如果不经常去跟业主交流，去跟当地居民交流，而只在一个封闭的办公室里做些东西，他无法真正做设计。

 

Frank Gehry: Probably a very old fashioned kind of architect, hahaha! because the new architects just go to the computer and get the project done. It’s interesting to watch.

 

盖里：我可能是个非常守旧的建筑师，哈哈哈。因为新的建筑师只通过计算机就搞定一切了。看起来很有趣。

 

Wang Jiani: However, your team has the best computer modeling technology in the world.

 

王丹妮：然而您的团队拥有当今最好的计算机建模技术。

 

Frank Gehry: I don’t use it that way. I use it to manage the project, manage the budgets, manage the engineers.

 

盖里：但我不（像很多年轻建筑师）那样使用它。我用它管理项目，管理成本，管理工程师。

 

Xie Hua: Actually our magazine has a column about BIM. We are very interested in your advanced use of BIM, the “Gehry Technologies”. Would you be interested in presenting some project examples in our column later?

 

谢华: 我们杂志有个关于BIM的专栏。我们对您在BIM上的深入运用非常感兴趣，您的那套“盖里技术”。您是否有兴趣今后在我们专栏里发表几个应用实例？

 

Meaghan Lloyd: BIAD uses our technology. Mr. Shao showed us some examples. So we can talk.

 

劳埃德：BIAD在用我们的技术。邵（韦平）先生给我们展示了一些实例。我们可以谈谈。

 

Frank Gehry: Yes, we would use in on any buildings here to guarantee the qualities. Design is translated to reality.

 

盖里：是的，我们愿意在这里的任何建筑上使用BIM以确保各种质量。设计由此被转化为现实。

 

Wang Jiani: People think you created the theories of Parametric Design, but you have been so quiet. You are not using it to promote anything.

 

王丹妮：大家认为您开创了参数化设计的理论，但您却一直如此低调。您没有用它来给自己做任何宣传。

 

Meaghan Lloyd: Everything he does, he uses it to help his design get built, not the other way around. Some people use the technology just to design something.

 

劳埃德：他所做的每一件事都是运用计算机技术去帮他将设计建造出来，而不是相反的过程。有些人使用计算机只是为了做设计。

 

Frank Gehry: So you can recognize buildings that were designed on Reno. It’s easy to recognize because Reno has an aesthetic translated to the visualizations.

 

盖里：所以你能辨认出哪些建造是用Reno设计的。这很容易辨别，因为Reno有自己一套视觉化的美学特征。

 

Meaghan Lloyd: When young teams use the computer to design, it is too easy to create shapes. Actually they don’t know how to build. So we do a lot of study and only use the computer to help us build it.

 

劳埃德：当年轻的团队使用计算机做设计，创造形体实在太简单了。但实际上他们不知道如何建造。所以我们做大量的研究，而且仅仅运动计算机帮助我们建造。

 

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图3 速写建筑大师Frank Gehry