原文地址：http://blog.artintern.net/blogs/articleinfo/shenyubing/215784

[沈语冰按]今年5月18日至24日，我应邀参加在中国美术学院举办的“西方艺术和艺术史高级工作坊”，有幸结识美国著名文艺复兴艺术史学者、米开朗琪罗国际权威威廉·华莱士教授，聆听了他关于莱奥纳多和米开朗琪罗的讲座、讨论课以及公开演讲。工作坊期间与华莱士教授就列奥·施坦伯格对文艺复兴艺术研究的贡献，以及施坦伯格的主要方法等问题，做了深入的交流，收获颇丰。令我特别感慨的是，美国学者对大师的那种敬畏感和崇敬感，以及他在演讲中谈到的西方听众在聆听大师讲座时那种惊愕的神态和不倦好学的精神。我常常感叹，在我国，学术领域正在沦为文化沙漠，因为人们已经丧失了好奇心和惊讶感。为此，我冒着令不少读者不悦的风险——已经有读者对我的大惊小怪和经常需要强调的语气表示诧异和不解——仍然要大声说：看哪！这是好东西！

 

录音时间：5月21日上午

地点：杭州中国美术学院南山路校区8号楼

文字录入并翻译：青虹

文字录入校对：毛秋月

翻译校对：沈语冰

（杭州工作坊成员合影，前排中间坐者为华莱士教授，左边为克伦肖副教授，右边是姜斐德女士） 

 

William Wallace: People mistreated paintings all the time, they would cut them down frequently without even thinking and put them into a new frame or something like that. They wouldn’t have thought [that frame] come to that importance... 

威廉·华莱士：人们总是错误地对待绘画，他们常常不假思索地切割作品，然后将它放在一个新的画框当中，或干一些诸如此类的事。他们以为[画框]没有那么重要…… 

Paul Crenshow: There is a method, which I am sure you are very familiar with, but I am not sure whether it is given a name, it is copywriting by Leo Steinberg，when you look at the copies and variations of the works of art, see what they can tell you about, people’s either understandings, or misunderstandings, about the work of art. And what it seems to be suggesting, I think quite really intriguing me, is that, in these, particularly, the new ones, that there is something can be seen of the reflection of Leonardo’s interest in the painting, and its relationship with nature, the raw nature, and the natural body, and so on.…. 

保罗·克伦肖：有一种方法，我相信你们都非常熟悉，但我不太肯定这种方法是否有一个名称。那就是列奥·施坦伯格发明的写作方法。当你观看艺术品的复制品及其不同版本时，你就能发现它们能告诉人们什么，比如人们对艺术的理解和误解之类。而有趣的是，在这些作品，尤其在是新作品当中，我感到最有意思的是它们似乎暗示着达芬奇对绘画的兴趣，绘画与自然，与未加粉饰的大自然的关系，以及自然中的身体的关系，如此等等。 

Wallce: Yes, I think that is exactly right. Leo Steinberg is the person who really, instead of dismissing copies as unimportant or inaccurate, actually thought that they told us a lot. But I think you probably have that tradition in China, you know, you look at copies, and you compare them; and the copies can tell you some time and something about the history of the object. But in the west, until Leo Steinberg, that was almost never done. And particularly he did this with The Last Judgment in a very very brilliant fashion. Because there were so many copies of The Last Judgment, he was extremely interested in who made variations and why. Because people tended to clean it up, or clothe the saints , or change it in various manners. And he found those all very very illuminating, and I think he is right. 

华莱士：太对了！列奥·施坦伯格不像其它人那样忽视复制品，认为它们不重要或者不准确，而是认为从复制品中可以看出很多内容。不过我想在你们中国也有这种学术传统，你们观察复制品，拿它们做比较，有时候那些复制品可以传达出有关那件作品的历史的某个时刻和某些情况等等的信息。但是在西方，直到施坦伯格之前，这种事情从来没人做过。特别是他在研究《最后的审判》时，非常聪明地运用了这个做法。因为《最后的审判》有很多复制品，他特别有兴趣的是谁做了改动，以及为什么会有这些变化。因为人们倾向于清洗和修复这类作品，或者在圣人[的裸体上]画上遮羞布，或者以各种各样的方式改变它。他觉得这些都富有启发性，我想他是对的。 

Shen Yubing: I’ve just translated one of Leo Steinberg’s masterpieces, Other Criteria. Could you please tell us a little bit more about his contributions to the Renaissance Art? (Wallce: I’d be happy to.) As he is universally recognized as a giant of Renaissance Art and Postwar American Art. But what is his main contribution to the Renaissance Art? 

沈语冰：我刚刚翻译了列奥·施坦伯格的一部杰作《另类准则》。您能再多谈一些他对于文艺复兴艺术研究的贡献吗？（华莱士：我很乐意。）他被普遍认为是研究文艺复兴和战后美国艺术的巨匠，那么他研究文艺复兴的主要成就是什么？ 

Wallace: Brilliant, as brilliant as his honor. Absolutely central, although Leo Steinberg as a funny story，we could convey here. He wasn’t always universally accepted in America because he himself sort of liked to be the gadfly of the society. He is sort of like a Socratic person out there, who nobody recognized, and thought that he was brilliant but sort of eccentric, and he sort of loved to play that part. And he felt like he never had really the position he deserved in American universities. I mean he taught at the University of Pennsylvania, which is a very very wonderful school with very important graduate programs,etc. But he was never invited to come to teach in Harvard or become part of Yale. He kept himself a little bit outside of the lesser people. Because I think in fact he was one of the smartest in visual art that I have ever met. And I did get a chance to know Leo Steinberg a little bit. When I was a beginning graduate student, he had already published extensively on Michelangelo. He was not only about The Last Judgment, but had a rather wonderful book about Michelangelo’s verily Pauline Chapel. That is a book I strongly recommended which influenced me tremendously. I went to talk to Leo Steinberg when I was thinking about working on Michelangelo, to get his approval. He was very nice, kind and encouraging. He thought that there were lots to do on Michelangelo. 

华莱士：施坦伯格无比卓越，实至名归。他绝对是重要的，虽然说起来很有趣，但我们在这里不妨说说。在美国，他其实并不是一直都能被所有人接受的。因为他似乎倾向于扮演一个牛虻式的人物，一个周围的人都无法理解的苏格拉底，人们都认为他既聪明又古怪。而他好像也喜欢担当这种角色。在美国的大学里，他认为他所获得的教席，从来都不能真正配得上他。当然他的确在宾夕法尼亚大学教书，这是一个很棒的学校，也有很重要的研究生课程等等。但是他从未应邀在哈佛讲学，或者成为耶鲁的教授。他像个隐士一样故意远离了人群。事实上，我认为他是我在视觉艺术领域里遇到过的最聪明的人之一。而我也确实有机会对他有更多的了解。当我刚刚成为研究生的时候，他早已发表了大量有关米开朗琪罗的研究了。他不仅研究了《最后的审判》，还有本极好的书是讲米开朗琪罗的波林礼拜堂的。我强烈地推荐这本书，它对我影响巨大。当我想要研究米开朗琪罗时，我去见施坦伯格，想要获得他的赞同。他非常友好，热心，他鼓励我，认为关于米开朗琪罗，还有许多工作可做。 

But I think he is absolutely central to introducing very fresh, very original ways of thinking about art and methodology. And one instance I can remember very particularly is 

he was giving a very prominent public lecture on the sexuality of Christ before this book came out. That was the title. I was in Columbia University at that time in New York as a student. And I remember this moment very vividly. He was invited to give this very large and impressive named talk. And I have never seen such a gigantic crowd show up, not only the scholars and the students, but people from New York, and people from other states, because everybody knew Leo Steinberg gave the most intensive and interesting lectures of anybody. Every time he gave a lecture, he was just polished, brilliant, full of ideas, beautifully written, beautifully presented, and he worked really hard on it, but he made it looked effortless, what the Italians called “a perfect attune”, which means something difficult looks effortless. And he was the master, at making this absolutely sound trimensigo.

但是我认为他最重要的贡献，在于他为艺术与方法论引入了非常新鲜、极富原创性的思维方式。有一个例子，我记得特别清楚，在他出版那本关于基督的性征的书之前，他做了一个极其精彩的公开讲座，题目就是“基督的性征”。那时候我还在纽约的哥伦比亚大学读书，当年的情景现在还历历在目。他被邀请来讲这个轰动一时的大题目。我从来没见过这么庞大的观众，不但有学者和学生们，还有从纽约州来的，其它各州来的人。因为人人都知道，列奥·施坦伯格的讲座是最有力、最有趣的。（华莱士对施坦伯格赞美的声调在此越来越热情亢奋——译者按）每一次演讲他都神采奕奕，机灵无比，一肚子的主意，文采斐然，妙语连珠。他显然为此呕心沥血，却仿佛举重若轻。就是意大利人说的“完美的声音”，意为难度很高却全无造作的痕迹，而他在举重若轻方面，就是这样一位大师。 

So part of the reason the people showed up for this lecture, was the title—— The Sexuality of Christ? No! What is Leo Steinberg gonna do now? Is he gonna embarrass himself? In fact that audience was all talking, and twittering, and when he started lecturing, they were giggling and talking. And when it was about ten minutes, there was a deadly silence. There must be about 2000 people in the audience. And everybody’s jaw…just strated drop open. This man is presenting the sexuality of the Christ! He’s talking about when Christ has a stiff member, and things like this! It was unbelievable! 

因此，这个讲座听者云集，当然也是因为它的标题：基督的性征？不会吧，施坦伯格又要干什么？这下他的脸可要丢大了。讲座开始的时候人们都在说话聊天，唧唧喳喳，但是才过十分钟，整个大厅里已经鸦雀无声——大概有2000名观众，每个人都瞠目结舌，下巴张得都快掉下来了！这个人在展示基督的性征！他在讨论基督什么时候会撑起小帐篷，如此等等，这简直难以置信！ 

One of the things I think so important is not just the good ideas. He marshaled huge amounts of visual evidence to support it. He had collected hundreds of images of Christ. Once before, they haven’t even been presented. Then he had been a good Jewish scholar who also knew the theological literature very very well. So he is able to combine the visual with the literature in the most intensely interesting and honorably convincing ways. And even though some people came out of that lecture saying no no no, I think that book was trans-illuminating. I mean in the way he think about religious picture, religious imagery, even when I talked on the Sistine Chapel Ceiling, one of the scenes we all talked about is “The Temptation” form, that comes straightly out of Leo Steinberg. So I’ve been enduringly affected. 

我觉得重要的不仅仅是他有那么多精彩的思想，他还调配了不计其数的图像证据来支持自己的想法。他收集了成百上千的基督像，有一些从前根本就没有展示过。他是一位杰出的犹太学者，当然对神学文献了如指掌，所以他能将视觉图像与文献以极其有趣的、特别有说服力的方式结合起来讲。尽管有些人离开讲座时会一个劲地摇头，我还是觉得那本书非常非常高明。我是指他思考宗教图像和宗教形象的那种方式。即使在我们讨论西斯廷教堂天顶画的时候，我们都谈到了一个场景，即《夏娃引诱亚当》，我的想法就直接来自施坦伯格。所以我受到了他持久的影响。 

附：华廉·华莱士教授简介 

William E. Wallace received his PhD in Art History from Columbia University in New York in 1983, and that same year joined the faculty of Washington University in St. Louis. He is the inaugural holder of The Barbara Murphy Bryant Distinguished Professor of Art History in the Department of Art History & Archaeology (since 2003). Professor Wallace is an internationally recognized authority on the Renaissance artist, architect and poet, Michelangelo Buonarroti. He was one of a select group of scholars, curators, and conservators from around the world invited to confer with the Vatican about the restoration of Michelangelo’s frescos in the Sistine Chapel (1990). 

Professor Wallace has published extensively on Renaissance art: in addition to more than eighty articles and essays (including two short works of fiction), he is the author or editor of six different books on Michelangelo, including the award winning, Michelangelo: The Complete Sculpture, Painting and Architecture (1998), and Michelangelo at San Lorenzo: The Genius as Entrepreneur (1994). 

He is the recipient of numerous awards and fellowships, including a year spent at Villa I Tatti, Harvard University’s Center for Renaissance Studies in Florence and a year at the American Academy in Rome. He has been a principal consultant for two BBC television programs on Michelangelo, and has taped a 36-lecture audio-visual course, “The Genius of Michelangelo” for “The Teaching Company.” His new biography of the artist, Michelangelo: The Artist, the Man and his Times recently appeared with Cambridge University Press (2010).