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《三千世界·蜉蝣》创作手记

《三千世界· 蜉蝣》是以空间站中全球航线数据的信息可视化图像做为出发点,以微观和宏观交织的视点去发现时间和空间的交替变化,提示了一种在今天全球化视野中个人的参照体糸,一念即永恒,瞬间感知大千世界古往今来,最新的物理学研究证明浩瀚的宇宙细构和与微观生物的细胞结构是相似的,禅宗讲“一花一世界”,即是同理。我希望作品能给人一种在时间空间中流变,感知苍海一粟、蜉蝣天地生生不息的概念。

 从宇宙的视点看全球的航线可视化数据流动,很像人类通过显微镜下观察细胞的分子结构,细胞蠕动的速率和从空间站拍摄的飞机航线的运动轨迹是何其相似?全球化时代是资本导致了人口、信息、科技与大数据的流动与变迁,生命的律动与宇宙的力量是暗合的,这是万物有灵的基因密码吗?

 

张小涛2018-05-23

 

Notes of A Mayfly in the Vast Universe

 A Mayfly in the Vast Universe is based on the information visualization image of global flight route data in the space station, discovering the alternating changes of time and space from microscopic and macroscopic perspectives and suggesting an individual reference system in today's global vision. One thought can be eternal. People can perceive the boundless world through the ages instantaneously. The latest physics research has proved that the cellular structure of the vast universe is similar to that of microscopic organisms, which is in accordance with the teaching of Zen that “one flower is one world.” I hope that this work can help people realize the change in time and space, and perceive the circle of life even for a drop in the sea and a mayfly in the world.

From the viewpoint of the universe, the flow of visual data about the global flight route is so much like the molecular structure of cells observed under a microscope. How similar is it between the rate of cell peristalticity and the trajectory of an aircraft route shot from a space station? In the era of globalization, capital has led to the flow and changes in population, information, technology and big data. The vitality of life is in harmony with the power of the universe. Is this the genetic code for all things?

Xiaotao Zhang
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Beijing Voice and Zhang Xiaotao at Pékin Fine Arts 

·January 20, 2015 Written by Luise Guest

From Beijing: Beijing Voice and Zhang Xiaotao at Pékin Fine Arts

There has been noise of late about the supposedly derivative nature of contemporary art, about questionable curatorial practices, and about the piratical behavior of the art market. “Zombie Formalism” and “Crapstraction” are glib, voguish—although, it must be said, amusing—terms that have been thrown around. Whatever you may think about this critique of current tendencies in abstract painting, it seems that all is not well in the world of contemporary practice. There is a growing sense that contemporary art has entered a swirling vortex of derivative quotations from the past—a Mannerist phase, perhaps. But is any of this relevant to contemporary art practices in China? After a disappointing exhibition across three major Beijing galleries, Zhang Xiaotao’s solo show at Pékin Fine Arts makes me believe that art still matters.



Zhang Xiaotao. Sakya, 2010-2011; still image; 80 x 144 cm. Courtesy of Pékin Fine Arts Beijing.

For the last few years, in regular visits to Beijing, I have been delighted to encounter work that seems to have escaped the dead hand of suffocating theory. Certainly Beijing has seen its share of the “art as spectacle” phenomenon, with artists tempted by the accessibility of large spaces, cheap labor, and cheaper fabrication costs to make works that are bigger and shinier than they need to be. But that’s the world we are living in now—a world of giant rubber ducks everywhere and butt-plug sculptures in the center of Paris. Art as entertainment. An evaluation of 2014 exhibitions in a Sydney newspaper pointed out that these days “you can’t just put stuff on the wall and expect that lots of people will come see.”[1] People expect something momentous, something extraordinary; they want their perceptions altered. In short, they want art to be magic.

And, sometimes, just sometimes, it is. My most enduring memories of the all-too-rare transcendent art experience include Cai Guo-Qiang in Brisbane, Xu Bing’s magnificentPhoenixin New York, and Huang Yong Ping at Beijing’s Red Brick Art Museum. Which is not to say that I haven’t also seen some wonderful painting, most particularly in Beijing and Shanghai. No “Zombie Formalism” there. To my list of the extraordinary I can now add Zhang Xiaotao’s digital 3D animations at Pékin Fine Arts, in his solo exhibition In the Realm of Microcosmic. Two works, Sakya (2010–2011) and The Adventures of Liang Liang (2012–2013), were exhibited in the 55th Venice Biennale, in the China National Pavilion’s Transfiguration curated by Wang Chunchen.



 

Zhang Xiaotao. Sakya No. 4, 2010-2011; still image; 80 x 144 cm. Courtesy of Pékin Fine Arts Beijing.

With references ranging from video-gaming software and science fiction to Tibetan thangka painting, sutras, and mandalas, Sakya reveals the struggle to retain spirituality in today’s modernizing, materialist China. It centers upon a significant Buddhist temple in Tibet partially destroyed by the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution. Past and present overlap and the experience is hypnotizing, immersive, and very beautiful. Zhang Xiaotao says his utopia would be a “Buddhist Renaissance” in China, believing that people have lost their way in the chaos of urbanization and the frantic acquisition of material possessions. He incorporates a deep sense of history and reverence for tradition with a dizzying technical accomplishment using innovative approaches to technology.

In The Adventures of Liang Liang (2013), the artist animates his little son’s precociously wonderful and eccentric drawings, creating an engaging allegorical adventure in which cartoon characters, superheroes, deities, and traditional Chinese stories such asJourney to the West merge and overlap. His most recent work, Three Thousand Worlds(2014), creates an ambitious multilevel, multi-spatial representation of the Buddhist notion of the oneness of all things, the Three Realms, the intricate reciprocal relationship between the macrocosmic and microcosmic view of the universe. He is influenced by new theories in quantum physics and the way they challenge accepted notions of time and space as much as by the philosophies of his mentor, Xu Bing.Joseph Beuys’ philosophy of “social sculpture,” in which the artist breaks down barriers between artwork, artist, and audiences, is a significant influence. Zhang Xiaotao believes the artist should be “like an alchemist.” On the evidence of this show, Zhang is a magician.

Zhang Xiaotao. The Adventures of Liang Liang, 2013; video; 11:49. Courtesy of Pékin Fine Arts Beijing.

A major event on the Beijing calendar each year at Pace Beijing has been Beijing Voice, which showcases current discourses and directions in contemporary Chinese art. This iteration, the fifth, was curated by artists Sun Yuan and Peng Yu with independent curator Cui Cancan. For their project Unlived By What Is Seen, they had 2,000 square meters of exhibition space to play with in Pace Beijing alone, as well as two other major Beijing galleries—Galleria Continua andTang Contemporary Art. The curators selected twenty-eight artists and three artist collectives to participate in an exhibition intended to interrogate relationships between the artist, the art object, and the audience.

Beijing Voice: Unlived By What Is Seen; installation view. Courtesy of Pace Beijing.

They present works in support of a theoretical position: that there is a shift in focus from making art to taking action; a move away from the production of images and objects. Instead, the artists are “developing modes of existence that interrogate life itself,” according to the somewhat opaque publicity material. In many instances the result of this is an artist-as-talking-head narrating personal stories or aspects of daily life to a video camera. Unsurprisingly, some of these are much more interesting than others. The documentation of performance works offered little that seems new. Sun Yuan volunteered to allow the artist Zhao Zhao to stab him once in the back with a knife. I think we may have seen this once or twice before.

Performance art is undeniably significant in the development of contemporary art in China, and is well documented. A consistent thread within this history focuses on a punishing, ritualized inscription of suffering upon the body. He Yunchang famously had his own rib surgically removed and made into a piece of jewelry with the addition of 400 grams of gold. Art historian Gao Minglu suggests that the overt violence that characterized performance art in the 1980s revealed, intentionally or not, the “sorrows and disturbances hidden in the artists’ souls as they found themselves straddling cultural epochs and influences while trying to forge a new way.”[2]  In the Bohemian East Village artists’ community outside Beijing, artists such as Zhang, He Yunchang, and Ma Liuming were responding to a society increasingly focused on private wealth and ownership of commodities. They felt they could “own” nothing but their own bodies. Performative practices thus focused on the idea that the artist’s own body was his or her primary material. Existential, ritualized, their work explored ideas about shamanism, martyrdom, political violence, and highly contested notions (in a collectivist society) of the individual.

Rather than establishing something radically new, Unlived By What Is Seen appears to look back with a degree of nostalgia to this era before Chinese artists were subjected to the hype and hustle of the art market. The artists and their works are all but invisible behind a wall of theory. Unfortunately, this makes the works—or, rather, the traces left behind following the actions of the artists—seem like historical artifacts.Huang Yan’s My Life recorded everything in his daily life for more than two years, and the exact time at which they occurred. More than a hundred thousand events have been recorded so far. More interesting was the documentation of Homeshop, a defunct artist initiative located in an old Hutong neighborhood in the city center that operated as a locus for the exchange of ideas between artists, designers, and thinkers—relays between the public and the private. But even here, the museological display of objects, documents, and photographs conveys little of what I am sure was genuinely exciting for the participants.

Beijing Voice: Unlived By What Is Seen; installation view. Courtesy of Pace Beijing.

Some works reveal an engaging Dadaist absurdity. Walk the Art Arena – No Survivorsuses the local comedy genre of “Crosstalk” to cover thirty years of anecdotes about Chinese contemporary art, artists, exhibitions, business dealings, and events. Kang Jin’s Faster is subtitled I try to run in the flow of traffic on the highway—which, given Chinese highway traffic conditions, must surely come under the heading of self-sacrifice in the name of art. Wei Bingqiang collected hundreds of stones in a fruitless endeavor, asking the question, “Is it possible to find an entirely circular stone in the world?”

Young artists have always questioned the nature and purpose of art—where would the 20th century avant-garde have been without that? While there is no doubting the sincerity of the curators, or the artists, in their belief that they are challenging the hegemony of the art market and what they deem “ossified modes of making art,” by the time I left the last of the three galleries I was beginning to feel that Joseph Beuys has a lot to answer for. For me, at least, the base metals had not turned into gold.

[1] Robert Nelson, “Visual Arts Year in Review,” Sydney Morning Herald, December 31, 2014http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/art-and-design/visual-arts-year-in-review-commercial-galleries-at-a-crossroads-as-institutions-prosper-20141226-12b2wt.html#ixzz3NiPPsVeK

[2] Gao Minglu, Total Modernity and the Avant-garde in Twentieth Century Chinese Art(Cambridge MIT Press, 2011), 216–217.

 

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·         January 20, 2015 Written by Luise Guest

In the Realm of the Microcosmic: A Conversation with Zhang Xiaotao

• January 19, 2015 • Printer-friendly

 

Earlier this month, Zhang Xiaotao spoke to Luise Guest in Beijing about the importance of a revival of spirituality...

Visitors to Sydney’s White Rabbit Gallery are likely to have encountered Zhang Xiaotao’s paintings of rotting garbage, swarming ants and used condoms. Depicted with meticulous realism, and with such a fabulous palette of viridian greens and lurid, glowing yellows and purples that they somehow make his abject and repellant subject matter appear beautiful, they are an indictment of a decadent society focused on obsessive consumption. Zhang has said that we live in an “age of lust” and in the past the major themes of his work were sex and death. Trained at the Sichuan Academy of Fine Arts, one of the powerhouses of Chinese art education, he has reinvented himself as a new media artist of extraordinary ambition, using the new possibilities of 3D animation software to create allegories of our time on a dramatic scale. Zhang Xiaotao co-founded and now heads the Sichuan Fine Arts Academy’s New Media Studies Department. And in an equally dramatic shift, he has turned from a darkly satirical skewering of modern desires to a deep engagement with Buddhist theory and practice.

 

 

Zhang Xiaotao, The Adventures of Liang Liang, Animation, 11’49”, 2013. Image courtesy the artist and Pékin Fine Arts

For the China National Pavilion at the 2013 Venice Biennale, uber-curator Wang Chunchen selected two of Zhang’s 3D animations. I met the artist in Beijing during his solo show at Pékin Fine Arts and we talked about the dramatic developments in his life and art. “Zhang Xiaotao: In the realm of Microcosmic” presents three full-length video animation works. Sakya is centred upon the reconstruction of an important Buddhist temple in Tibet, partially destroyed by the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution. Zhang has blended traditional Buddhist thangka painting and mandalas with live action film, video gaming imagery and lushly layered effects to produce a hypnotically beautiful and immersive experience. The Adventures of Liang Liang animates the charmingly eccentric drawings of the artist’s little son, creating an allegorical journey through heaven and hell blending traditional Chinese classical imagery of mountains and water with the contemporary world of traffic jams and airport security checks. Three Thousand Words attempts to visually represent the Buddhist notion of the three realms of our existence, a multi-level, multi-spatial exploration of human heart and universe as one. Photographic still images in the exhibition reinforce the themes found in all elements of Zhang’s practice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zhang Xiaotao, Sakya No.4, Still Image, 80x144cm, Edition10 2010-2011, image courtesy the artist and Pékin Fine Arts

I watched each animation with the artist, while he provided a commentary about his thinking. They draw inspiration from the contemporary visual language of video-gaming as much as from traditional Tibetan Buddhist iconography and the ancient Chinese tradition of ink painting. The Adventures of Liang Liang features cartoon characters, superheroes, and Buddhist deities in a joyfully eccentric visual cacophony. Characters ranging from Snoopy (in the red scarf of a Chinese “young pioneer) to cartoon monsters and the protagonists of traditional Chinese stories merge and overlap. It is wonderfully charming and thought provoking - and I for one totally get the analogy between airport security and the realms of the damned. Zhang is influenced by new theories in quantum physics and the way they challenge accepted notions of time and space and by the philosophies of Xu Bing, his mentor, and the artist he most admires. Zhang Xiaotao believes an artist should be “like an alchemist.” Over many cups of fragrant tea, I asked Zhang to tell me about his metamorphosis since 2005 from painter to new media artist working at the cutting edge of technology. What follows is an extract from a longer conversation, which took place in Chinese with an interpreter assisting.

 

ZX: In my view, we are now in an age of images, internet and technology. So we must learn new techniques and new languages. New media has changed my destiny. My work went to the Venice Biennale and the Asia Pacific Triennial in Queensland. I think it is an artist’s calling to study and implement new techniques and new languages. An artist must continue to learn and to transform. He has to do this every day. But I still paint! I like traditional material as well as new visual languages. So I spend half the time painting, half the time doing animation.

LG: So I wonder then, are your practice of painting and your practice of new media connected with each other or do you see them as separate and distinct elements of your work?

 

ZX: They are connected in terms of concept and philosophy. But I have a team, a studio, a lot of assistants. This is important. Making new media or animation requires a team. There’s a heavy work load in it…No matter how an artist expresses himself, whether in a two-dimensional or three-dimensional way, or a digital way, it is not the method or the technology that is the most important thing. What matters is how you turn your idea and thinking into language, how you share the language with others and make others feel interested, and whether what you create is innovative. So I think they are connected [in that way].

LG: Painting and animation are very different visual languages. Do you find it pleasurable to get back into the studio and paint, which is a very solitary activity, compared to the teamwork of the animation studio?

 

ZX: Doing animation is a lot more difficult. It involves time, money, knowledge and energy, especially when it comes to management. For example, if I have 20 assistants, I have to pay them every month. These are all very realistic problem. It takes one to two years to finish a film. It’s totally like the Long March! [Here Zhang is referring to the 10,000 kilometre trek of Mao’s army in 1934 – 1935, in which they crossed 18 mountain ranges and 24 rivers before reaching their new stronghold in Yan’an.] As for painting, it gives me pleasure, it’s an enjoyable process. Making animations is painful! But when you finish an animation, you feel happy as well. They are different to me, like my left hand and right hand, like two sides of a coin.

LG: We just saw your work ‘Sakya’ inspired by a famous temple in Tibet. You told the New York Times that your Utopia would be to see China in the middle of a Buddhist renaissance. Do you believe that China today has lost its way, and that people are seeking meaning in empty pursuits, in consumerism and materialism?

 

ZX: Modernisation and globalisation in the 20th Century gradually destroyed Chinese tradition. So I think we should re-discover our traditions and our religion, especially now that China has become more powerful economically, militarily and politically. Otherwise, just crazily making great strides will have horrifying consequences. After the establishment of the People’s Republic of China, domestic political factors like the Cultural Revolution were the main causes of the destruction of tradition. But today the harm inflicted by economic growth and business on Chinese culture, education and society are equally as serious as political issues. I think business is as damaging as politics. This is the reason I advocate that we turn to religion, and educate our children to go back to the origin of our culture. Also, the changes brought about by a market economy and globalisation can destroy our tradition and culture more [than politics].

LG: Did the birth of your son ten years ago make you think about these ideas much more deeply, thinking about the future of your child and all our children?

ZX: This is a good question. Since I’m a college teacher, I must have some conscience.
My attitude towards my students and my family is similar. Being the director of the New Media Department is the same. As the director, I want to improve this area of study for my students. This is all that I can do. I can’t change my country, but I can change little things around me like my school, my department and my family. To improve society, I want to begin with a cell, a drop of water.

LG: In this complicated 21st century world, what do you think is the function of art and the role of artist?

 

ZX: In today’s global economy that has changed the world, the identity of the artist has become more and more vague. I regard artists as the alchemists of this era. And like social sculpture, I hope that artists can get involved in helping to shape society. I hope artists can be the wizards in the lab of the future! I want practice and social action. It is important to change society in this way, because a globalised art market will erase the identity of artists and turn us into commodities. I don’t like that… I want artists to be change-makers or revolutionaries. An artist should not become the slave of commerce. He should change his world, getting involved in his society. This is the most important thing.

 

LG: So are you saying that artists in your opinion should be activists, that art can bring about social change?

ZX: Of course. I’ll give you an example. In 2008 and 2009, the Beijing government intended to demolish artists’ studios. I led a team and friends in our Art Zone and we took action to protect our studios and our community. We held on for five or six years. This is my true civic participation in this society. We petitioned, went to the media, held seminars and exhibitions. We managed to change the governmental plan for this art zone in Beijing. I am a teacher, I established the New Media Department and this too is a kind of social practice. So artists are like the bridge between art and society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Zhang Xiaotao, Sakya No.5, Still Image, 80x144cm. Edition10 2010-2011, image courtesy the artist and Pékin Fine Arts

 

LG: In your most recent work, ‘Three Thousand Worlds’, again you are looking at Buddhism, and some very complicated ideas about quantum physics and the relationship between macroscopic and microscopic views of the universe. How do you reconcile traditional Buddhist beliefs with the demands of life in the 21st century?

 

ZX: In ancient Chinese culture, there is a Buddhist saying that “You can see a world by observing a flower.” It means the universe is included in very little things. That is a Buddhist thought. You can see the whole world from a pinhole and all ages from the tip of bamboo shoot. These are all traditional ideas in Chinese philosophy. They tell us that human hearts and the universe are connected. So I can put it this way. The crude philosophy of Chinese ancients and today’s science are connected as well. For example, quantum physics has proved that sections of human cells are strikingly similar to the surface of the moon. This phenomenon tells us that all things have spirits. Any single cell is one with the universe. For example, scientists have shown that the structure of a section of human brain corresponds to the structure of celestial bodies in space. Therefore, science and Buddhism are related. So I think we need to find a new code, a new language in their overlap. We have ancient times on the one hand, and the modern era in the other. You can find new things from where the two overlap. I show the meeting of sperm and egg at the end of Three Thousand Worlds, making it like a boundless universe. The human body is like a huge computer, a huge universe with all the data and information…Actually the ancient Chinese knew this a long time ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zhang Xiaotao with his work ‘The Adventures of Liang Liang’ at Pékin Fine Arts, Beijing, December 2014, Photograph Luise Guest.

 

LG: As the director of the Sichuan Fine Arts Academy New Media Department, what do you think are the strengths and weaknesses of art education in China, as distinct from the West?

 

ZX: I think Chinese education now faces quite serious problems. The problems lie in social values in China. Everybody worships money. Idealists [among the students] are very few. Most students are shortsighted…This problem is not just about art but about the whole society. When we deal with education, the biggest issue is the utilitarianism and materialism of the whole society, the focus on commerce. Students do not learn for knowledge, happiness and belief. This is the biggest problem in my view. We learned new media from the West. But I value more the study and research on tradition like the history of Buddhist art, or social reforms in China. I think Chinese culture and Western new media should be combined in the artistic creation. Otherwise, we just learnt a language from the West, and what we create would lack our own concept and methodology. So when we teach our top students, we urge them to study Western technology and language abut also to think about China’s own problems. Merging these two elements is a new path. This is a choice we have to make when China faces globalisation and modernity. We have to come back to China, and return to examine our own culture and problems.

 

LG: Do you see yourself as essentially a Chinese artist, or do you believe that all artists today are global creatures who speak an international language?

 

ZX: I believe art language can be global. But at the core, the philosophy and methodology [in different places] are essentially different. Because things like new technology and new media can be globalised [in the production of artworks] but the thoughts behind them are different. It’s just like football is a global sport. But football in different regions has its own culture and philosophy. Football culture in Argentina, Australia, Germany or England is all different. So I think there is a global art market but not a globalised culture. I’d rather be a Chinese local artist. Whether Chinese art is or can be globalised, whether it can be shared by the world, is another question. The most important thing is to set out from China, from Chinese culture. If you don’t express your own problems, all that you present will be false. The most important thing is to go back to the origins of your culture and to go back to your own problem - to go back to China. You have to have roots, like a tree. Roots are here. To grow branches and leaves is another issue.

 

Zhang Xiaotao, ‘In the Realm of Microcosmic’ at Pékin Fine Arts Beijing till February 14 2015.


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(2016-01-31 12:53)
 

by ZXT · June 27, 2014
 


张小涛空影——张小涛作品2009-2014开幕表演现场2014.
 

杨北辰:你的艺术创作中,包括你的研究中,“精神”、“信仰”与现实问题交织在一起,然而这种宏大的、形而上的主题似乎已经不再是当下艺术关注的重点,你为什么对于这样的话题情有独钟?

 

张小涛:我在2010年开始创作《萨迦》动画电影时,貌似遇到了一个漫无边际的世界,如:藏传佛教、地缘政治、考古学与藏学等交叉学科的相关宏大问题,后现代哲学大多把“叙事”和“精神”和“信仰”这种“宏大叙事”视为“毒药”,在今天这样一个急剧变革的全球化的碎片化世界中,如何重组碎片化的信息?如何建构个人的知识谱系和视觉化的反思逻辑?如何把这些研究报告转换为自己的图像方法与观念?我试图用“微观叙事”的图像方法去编码关于世界与个人的悖论关系,此刻个人经验与公共经验不期而遇,以小见大的图像方法和古人关于山水的“心眼”说法有几分相似,这些相遇很像一个转盘,一切都是未知的迷宫……这个通道也许有古典主义的“陷阱”,但是我希望从这个通道中去发现传统中蕴含的现代性和未来性,从古典反观当代,从当代回看古典。古代与当代不只是一个线性逻辑的时空里,它们更是历时性与共时性交织的多重边界的时空,当然这是一个充满“危险”的选者,我希望在未来的作品中来不断的证明或者实践这些思考。

 

杨北辰:在对你作品的介绍中,你强调了“修辞”的重要性,这种修辞既可以理解为图像的,也可以理解为媒介的,是否可以展开谈一下?

 

张小涛:艺术家往往是现实世界的精神转译者,转译的过程既是编码也是解码的过程,我在“通道”系列的作品中抽离地缘政治中的暴力事件图像,把这些图像重新“编辑”在一个去掉地域特征的地铁或通道、机场的某一个公共空间中,用蚂蚁的视点来观看这些戏剧化的场景,当符号和图像脱离了原有的语境之后,艺术家工作就有了转换的可能,我们很多时候的工作是依赖经验的,当我们丧失经验之后,还能有什么样的认识和实践呢?我试图在自己的工作中找到图像和符号背后隐秘的线索,比如在图像结构、图像修辞、叙事逻辑上找到自己的脉络、观看方法、个人的视点,他们将会形成一个开放式的场域,此刻图像修辞学成为个人工作方法的支点,或者说是一个起点。我希望在自己的不同时期的作品中去找到不同的视点和方法,但他们之间是相互关联、相互证明的共同体。

 

杨北辰:新媒体艺术已经成为一种当代艺术的“显学”,但目前所有的讨论似乎都无法切中新媒体的真正的“新”,在你的创作与教学中,如何处理“新”所带来的各种挑战与机遇?

 

张小涛:今天的全球化技术变革与信息化网络的跨学科、跨媒介交往,让我们对“新媒体”往往无法定义,事实上在商业、科技、生物、军事等领域中新媒体技术的运用,远远领先于当代艺术领域,那么什么样的方法和实践才是当代艺术与科技、思想的融合的新媒体艺术呢?在新媒介日新月异的今天,我们可能要更加注意什么是不变的东西代代相传?无论国际还是中国,新媒体理论是落后于实践的,所以理论与实践的“试错”是很重要的,在未知的领域我们都无法预测未来的走向,新媒体理论到技术、实验室都需要一个系统化的工作去梳理和建构一个完整结构,从细微的试验开始,建立一个未知的虚拟世界,我们今天的所有工作都是“未来实验室”的一部分,新媒体虚拟艺术的疆域辽阔,我们每个人都是浩瀚星空其中的一个链条和碎片,不知道将要走向何方,但我相信实践出真知,实践的过程就是意义。

 

杨北辰:你与儿子的合作,以及和学生的共同创作,体现出了你对于交流与参与的重视,也应和了你作为“父亲”与“老师”的双重身份,能否阐释这种交流对你的意义何在?

 

张小涛:2013年春我在成都当代美术馆为川美新媒体学生策划的《细胞加工厂》展览与儿子共同合作的《量量历险记》动画都有相似的地方,其实是人到中年对艺术的看法改变了,艺术就是人与人的交往和生活方式,不是冰冷的美术馆与艺术史的“坟墓”,艺术既是名利场,也是《封神榜》,但艺术是艺术家很具体的工作和生活,无论是“父亲”也好还是“老师”也好,我觉得最主要的对人和事的态度与观念的变化,让艺术家的身份消失了,作为一个普通人的身份去面对艺术,我很享受这些充满快乐和温暖的记忆。我把《量量历险记》作为成人和儿童世界的相遇,想用儿童的眼光去探索日常化生活和神奇幻想世界的重叠,通过这个作品来讨论我们对生命、时间和空间的一种态度,其实我们每个人面对未来都是未知的,孩子眼中的神奇世界为我们打开了另一扇窗户和通道,让我们去发现和探索那些未知游戏的秘密……

 

Yang Beichen: In your artistic creations and your studies, ‘spirit’, ‘belief’ and ‘reality’ are intertwined, however, this grandiose and metaphysical themes seems to have no longer get more attention on art field. But why are you so into this kind of theme?

 

Zhang Xiaotao: When I start to doing animated film “SAKYA” in 2010 , it’s like facing to aendless world, such as: Tibetan Buddhism, geopolitics, archeology, Tibetan studies and other interdisciplinary grandiose issues. The ‘Grand theme’ such as: ‘Narrative’, ‘spirit ‘and ‘belief ‘ are been seen as ‘poison’ in post-modern philosophy mostly. How to reconstruct fragmented information in this drastic changeable globalization fragmentation world? And how to construct personal knowledge pedigree and visual reflection logic? How to convert these research reports transform to your own image methods and concepts? I tried to use ” micro- narrative” to coding paradox about the relationships between world and person.It induce personal experience and public experience meet without appointment: ‘Get to know the whole things from details’ method has a few similar points with the ’Xinyan’ sayingfrom ancients on the landscape. These encounters like a turntable, everything is unknown maze … this channel may have neoclassical ‘trap,’ but I hope to find modernity andfuture which contains in tradition from this passage; it’s a comparison in classicality andcontemporary. Ancient and contemporary are not only in a linear logic space-time, but alsoin a temporal multiple boundaries spatial. Without doubt,this is a ‘dangerous’ election,and I hope to prove or practice these reflections constantly in future works.

 

Yang Beichen: In the introduction of your work, you have emphasized the importance of the ‘rhetoric’; this rhetoric can be understood both as an image and a medium, can expand about it?

 

Zhang Xiaotao: Artists tend to be the spirit translator of the real world. Translation process is both the process of decoding and encoding. In my work ’Ttunnel’ series, I took out the violence images from detached geopolitics, and ‘edit’ those images in to a publicspace which do not have any regionally features, such as, subway or airport tunnel; thenwatch these dramatic scenes from the viewpoint of an ant. When symbols and images are out ofthe original context, artists’ work will have possibility to convert. Mostly, we dependent on experience during our working, but, if we lose experience, what kind of knowledge and practice would we have?I tried to find hidden clues behind mages and symbols in my work,such as, finding the context, viewing methods and personal point of view from image structure, image rhetoric and narrative logic; They will structure an open field, the image rhetoric becomes the fulcrum of personal working methods, or a starting point. I hope tofind different viewpoints and methods in my works from different periods, and they are interrelated and mutually proved Community.

 

Yang Beichen: New media art has become a ‘famous school’ of contemporary art, but it seems like they is no discussion have really hit the word ’new’, how did you deal with the challenges and opportunities that brought from the ‘new’?

 

Zhang Xiaotao: Interdisciplinary and cross-media communication of globalization technological change and informational network sometimes make us unable to define ‘new media’. In fact, the employ of new media technologies in business, science, biology, military and other fields are far leader in the field of contemporary art. What kind ofmethods and practices could be the new media art which fuse contemporary art and technology?Nowadays we may have to pay more attention to what things could unchanging from this to next generation. Whether international or China, new media theory is behind the practice, so the ‘Try and Fail’ of both theory and practice is very important. We are unable to predict future in an uncharted territory. New media needs systematic organize andestablish a complete structure from theory, techniques and laboratories. The virtual arts ofnew media has vast territory, everyone is a chain or debris of this vast art sky. Although we have no idea where will be going, but I believe that practice makes perfect, the processof practice is significant.

 

Yang Beichen: The cooperation with your son and your students reflects your attention to communication and participation, also shows your dual identity as “father” and ” teacher”, could you explain the meaning of this exchanges to you?

 

Zhang Xiaotao:2013 spring in Chengdu Museum of Contemporary Art, “Cell factory” exhibitionthat I had curated for my students has similar part with the animation ‘Liangliang’sAdventures’ that I work together with my son. Actually, it’s my thinking of art has changed when I am into middle-aged. Art is communication between people and lifestyle, not‘grave’ of icy galleries and art history. Art is the artist ‘s specific work and life, I think the most important is the changes of attitudes and perceptions of people and thingsmakes the identity of artist disappeared, either ‘father’ or ‘teacher’. As a normalperson to read art, I am enjoying these happiness and warm memories. I had made‘Liangliang’s Adventures’ as an encounter of adults and children’s world, using children vision to explore the overlap of everyday life and magic fantasy world. Through this work to discuss our attitude of life, time and space; in fact, each of us is unknown about futurewhen we face it, but the magical world in children’s eyes has open another window and channel, let us to discover and explore the secrets of unknown games…

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Nostalgia and Surrealism Infuse Works of Chinese Animation Artist

 

 

 

The Saturday Profile

By JANE PERLEZ JAN. 1, 2016

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The brutal college entrance exam and the frenetic beliefs of my father’s generation: How similar are they?” ZHANG XIAOTAO

 

 

Credit

Sim Chi Yin for The New York Times

 

 

 

CHONGQING, China — ZHANG XIAOTAO, one of China’s leading animation artists, grew up in  Hechuan District,Chongqing city,  in western China where the ferocity of the Cultural Revolution left indelible marks on everyone. His father, a leader of the local Red Guards, emerged with his spirit broken by what he saw and did.

But that is not what Mr. Zhang remembers from his childhood. Instead of the violence, he recalls the imposing Catholic church near his home, 30 miles north of here, built by French missionaries at the turn of the 20th century. Its broad verandas and colonnades, encrusted with moss in the clammy summer months, remained after the violence, and tall stands of bamboo provided swaths of shade.

Mr. Zhang, 45, remembers the church so vividly because he would play on the grounds there. And by the time he was 10, when his parents had abandoned him to find work far away, it had become a place of dreams where he would take his sketchbook and paint.

Nostalgia for the big whitewashed building infuses a number of Mr. Zhang’s award-winning digital animation films, which explore China’s rush to modernization. In sometimes surreal ways, the films try to show what the intense pressure to achieve wealth and success does to the soul.

 

 

 

 

 

 Zhang Xiaotao, a Chinese artist, at his studio in Beijing. Originally a painter, he now focuses on digital animation films.

Credit

Sim Chi Yin for The New York Times

 

It is not so much the church’s physical structure that appears in his work, although it does occasionally. Rather, it is the building’s sense of calm that, he says, contrasts with the almost intolerable intensity of contemporary urban China.

 

I have deep memories from the church as a child,” he said in his studio at the Sichuan Fine Arts Institute, where he studied as a young man and now heads the new media department. Around him, dozens of young digital artists labored over computer screens to help complete one of his new works. When I was playing there as a child I could see people praying, and I felt a profound sense of religion.” Those who prayed were not organized by priests or nuns. The official church had long been expelled from China.

They were men and women who were too old to be dragged into the madness of the Cultural Revolution, and who turned to the church in his village as a place of solace, much as Mr. Zhang does today.

 

Mr. Zhang ’s latest work, Spring in Huangjueping,” is a two-hour digital animation movie that he has entered into the 2016 Berlin International Film Festival. He was elated that the film had made the jury’s first cut.

 

 

The idea of the film, he said, is to draw parallels between the Cultural Revolution and the dismal period nearly 20 years later when he sought entry to the institute. He failed the entrance exam three times, an experience that still haunts him.

 

 

The movie is cast with figures drawn in the style of a graphic novel: skinny young men and women from Mr. Zhang’s student days are dressed in basic T-shirts and pants, while Red Guards from the earlier era appear in drab olive uniforms with rifles. The landscape resembles the gritty parts of the industrial city of Chongqing, and its outskirts in Huangjueping, where the art institute and his studio are. The brutal college entrance exam and the frenetic beliefs of my father’s generation: How similar are they?” Very, he concludes.

 

 

LIKE many artists in China who are known in the West, Mr. Zhang seems to be in perpetual motion. He shuttles between Chongqing and Beijing, the commercial center of China’s art world where he shows up at gallery exhibits, does deals and still paints in a studio in the 798 complex, the contemporary art area. There, in the entrance to his studio hang two paintings with distinctly religious motifs: a copy of El Greco’s The Burial of the Count of Orgaz” and a contemporary version of Buddha, the kind of images that are perfectly acceptable in China as long as they are not flaunted.

As a child, Mr. Zhang showed a knack for making money to support his painting, a skill that serves him now as he plunges into animation, one of the more expensive forms of contemporary art.

 

 

I bought comic books and rented them to classmates,” he said. And from sixth grade, when I was living by myself because my parents went away, the business grew from renting 50 comic books to 1,000 comic books.”

When he finally conquered the exam and got into art school, he found himself in the tumult of the ’90s art scene, when Chinese artists were the newest fad in the West. At the time, the Sichuan institute’s oil painting department, whose graduates include Zhang Xiaogang, now one of China’s most sought-after contemporary painters, was a crucible of experimentation.

In the late ’90s, Meg Maggio, an American lawyer who ran a contemporary gallery in Beijing, met Mr. Zhang when he was showing his work in Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong.

 

 

He was painting surreal fantasy paintings of candy-colored condoms,” said Ms. Maggio, who still represents Mr. Zhang through her gallery Pékin Fine Arts in Beijing. Later, he became well known for painting a long series of overripe, slightly rotten, occasionally moldy strawberries.” In 2006, she sold a number of his paintings to the British collector, Charles Saatchi, including a six-foot painting of a drowning rat.

But Mr. Zhang was moving on from oil painting. He studied photography for a while in Europe, and then in 2000 in San Francisco he fell into animation. It changed my life,” he said. He easily adapted to the skills of animation, and though he was tempted to set up shop in New York, a city he finds exhilarating, he decided to return to China to establish his own company.

 

 

I came back to China because the cost for animation is very low — you can hire a complete team for not very much,” he said. His first effort, though, was a failure. I hired four oil painting students. They were not capable.”

HIS first big splash with animation came with “Mist,” a 32-minute film that took two years to make. The film features armies of red glossy ants and dinosaurlike creatures marching in militaristic unison, and eventually waging bloody battles that leave a trail of destruction and blood. In one scene, a truck filled with human skeletons carrying a red flag, symbolic of China, floats across the screen.

The film, criticized by some of his colleagues as too Hollywood, was intended as a metaphor for the frenzy around the Beijing Olympics in 2008 when China, he said, was building things, and then tearing them down.” At the end of the film, an image of Buddha hints at serenity amid madness.

His next film, Sakya,” which together with Mist” was shown at the Venice Biennale in 2013, is named after a Buddhist monastery in Tibet. It uses 3-D modeling software to create a celestial mood of pilgrims and Tibetan mandalas, and won praise for its exploration on the limitations on freedom of religion.

For his next venture, Mr. Zhang plans to leave the Sichuan Fine Arts Institute and take the helm of a Beijing gallery, the Kylin Center of Contemporary Art. There, he said, he will show art fromaround the world and send Chinese art abroad.

 

But most of all, he says, he looks forward to having more time to spend with his son, Liang-liang. My parents did not spend much time with me,” he said. I feel guilty that I have not seen enough of my son, and I miss him. I have promised to take him to New York to see the great art.”

 

 

--

Yufan Huang

The New York Times
Researcher
T: +86 10 5695 2845
F: +86 10 5695 2900
M: +86 15201641997
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重回绘画

--- 关于绘画实践的几点思考

今天要讨论绘画是一件极其困难的事,绘画是旧媒体,在语言和观念上不如新媒体表达自由和尽兴,绘画的历史浩如烟海,任何一个绘画史的节点都可以让你痛不欲生,望洋兴叹。绘画看似钱图最好,但历史线索太长,当代又乱泥沙俱下,其实很难入手找到一个逻辑和方法论,绘画虽然从事的人多,但是所有媒介中最难的,小感觉小趣味居多,空洞的语言、语法实验基本上等同于少男少女的日记,好比关起门来自己很嗨的撸,让我们想起初中《生理卫生》书上的话:过度手淫对身体有害..... 今天是自媒体的时代,任何大事在微信朋友圈只有一天的存活周期。信息和媒体的大数据时代,绘画的观看模式发生了根本性的改变,绘画的经验如何被今天的时代共享,绘画的意义不是在巴塞尔博览会、苏富比的拍卖场上,我们要追问艺术家是如何进行图像生产?如何激活绘画的经验?如何在跨媒体的实践中去重新发现绘画的边界?如何与社会场域发生交互关系?

翻Andy Warhol的"GIANT"SIZE画册,感觉安老师什么都玩过了?政治、色情、艺术史、商业文化、通俗文化、同性恋、出版、电视、电影、实验前卫.....只要你能想到的他都襄括其中,完全是一部关于20世纪美國图像志的百科全书。这不是断了其他人的后路吗?生在他同时代的小伙伴不知道是怎么想的,Andy Warhol果然是不拘一格的怪物,艺术说来说去无非是解决当地的个人的问题,从思想方法上和语言上找到自己的办法,艺术神奇的地方在于贵比黄金,贱如一张纸,每个人无论从哪里开始?最后都会以成、败、事、非收场,俗套的说像考场.....

艺术家的典型生活有两种方式:一是在工作室,这是艺术内心的深渊也是迷宫,既是修行,也是疗伤之地,是个人教堂也是做白日梦的地方,色彩、笔触、线条层层覆盖.....二是展厅,展厅是一个梦幻剧场,充满光环、仪式、名利、勾引、欲望等,把艺术家在工作室的枯坐、修行与展厅的繁华如梦相比较,自然相映成趣,这是很有意思的地方。这也是艺术家的非典型生活,当然还有大量的旅行途中的孤独、忧伤、恐惧、茫然,这是另一个维度和空间,身在其中才冷暖自知。

不少画家学Gerhard Richter就是一刷子虚过去,学了一张具像的皮,忽略了他在抽象风景下面的层层叠叠、颠覆与建构、幻灭与重生.....莽莽苍苍的哲学化思考与语言实验,德国艺术是有深厚的哲学根基,抽离其作品中的图像与符号,其语言也是有自身的美学脉络和艺术史渊源,这是其真正高明之处,在抽象和具像、图像和语言、哲学与生活之间躲猫猫,这才是高人啊?夜读石涛、八大更是心生敬意,一热一冷。明未清初天崩地裂时代巨变,四僧默默以书画回应时代之变,笔墨乃心画也,书画成为疗伤之地,王朝更替之痛与个人心灵之痛乃心中之真,书画记录了这些心路历程,枯坐修行却千年传承,大道同归乎?越往前走,倍感同路人少了,可读的书少了,也许了解自己的内心比了解世界更更要,古人有"心眼"之说,我笃信:心中有手中有。任何选择都是宿命,人生本质上就是一个人独自上路面对一场暴风雪,只有一条路,就是穿越漫天大雪....

Giorgio Morandi是一生用几个瓶瓶罐就搞定了艺术史的高人,他的作品神秘、简约、朴素、抽象,并充满了哲学的沉思,上接Giorgio de Chirico形而上画派,下启抽象主义,到今天的比利时Luc Tuymans莫不受其深远影响,所以判断一个艺术家的价值,要问他从哪里来的?又往哪里去?对后来者有无启发?是否是节点式的人物?我尤其喜欢浙江的枯寂与孤寒,巴掌大的十来张册页,真是叹为天人,笔墨极少,却最为动人。他与Giorgio Morandi本质是相通的,不食人间烟火,笔底才有这高古之意,不染尘埃,作品本是一张纸一张布,却贵比黄金,那一定是背后的故事,精神与信念、肉身的混杂,荣耀却代代传承。

大道至简,Luc Tuymans的绘画拥有强烈的隐喻性,作品是摄影,电视和电影等媒介的再延伸,并在材料上进行颠覆、解构、重组、延展,如他说的:“好的画作应该具有于无声处听惊雷的力量。” 绘画是生命在时间和空间相遇时制造的幻影,绘画是一个幽闭的通道,似乎一开始绘画就是死胡同?在限制中去发现和创造,在被动中寻求主动,这是绘画的宿命吗?如果我们回到绘画,是什么让绘画得以复活,绘画的过程既是自我发现的过程,也是澄明朗现的过程......无论是图像的消逝,还是图像的生长?语言才是内核,有内核的种子才能开枝散叶and开花结果,我相信万物泥土生......

2015年6月29日于北京温榆河畔








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昨天釆访"收租院"重要作者之一王官乙老师,老人家80了,气色很好。与他交谈获益匪浅,钩沉历史往事,5o年过去了,一切繁华如梦尘埃落尽,最后注定政治的必定归政治,艺术的归艺术,<<史记>>曰:"述往事,知来者",收租院在文革前期一鸣惊人,一时成为文革美术的重要样板,因为阶级斗争教育需要全国巡展,每到一处观众如潮。1971年哈雷徳•塞曼曾邀请"收租院"参加第5届卡塞尔文献展,因文革原因未能成行、因1999年蔡国强"威尼斯•收租院"获金狮奖引起波澜,引起川美状告蔡的事件,而大邑收租院也与川美版权之争,2009年收租院巡展到法兰克福黑森州美术馆、2010年"收租院"应邀参加了光州双年展.....一件作品从诞生开始一至荣耀、争议、事非不断,可能这就是一件伟大的作品的历史宿命.....王官乙老师谈到川美雕塑糸在60年代思考的重要课题:1)雕塑如何为几亿农民造像?到农村中去。2)雕塑语言和观念如何民族化?今天看来"收租院"对四川民间佛教造像、川剧的借鉴,对现成品的运用,对地主庄院空间的再运用,这些工作方法在当时是具有划时代意义,暗合了国际上现成品和超级写实雕塑的艺术潮流,之所以这件作品今天还不断的有话题,最后还是艺术语言和方法的创造才能穿透历史的迷雾,后来四川伤痕与乡土绘画又是一鸣惊人,内在脉络和"收租院"是惊人的相似,只是"收租院"在国际上走得更远,一个区域一个学校一个家族总有相同的基因和脉动,薪火相传,传灯无尽。不知道文脉和血脉的相互关联,是没有未来的,今天我们都谈到从大足石刻的赵智凤、筇竹寺黎广修到"收租院"的一脉相承,文脉在一个区域古往今来从未消失,"吾道苦中求乐,众生乐中求苦",向先贤致敬!

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对话者:
 刘健 张小涛  

时间20121023日晚20002130 

地点:四川美术学院新媒体艺术系图书室 

整理:罗劬 易雨潇

 

 

                 

 由摄影到动画 

张:90年代以来在一些当代艺术的杂志上看到您和赵勤做的涂鸦风格的图片,特别幽默。发现您和南京的其他艺术家很不一样,南京艺术家大多有才华,有文人的慵懒,没有您的这么理性。赵勤让我觉得特别亲,他老家是四川的,哥们儿也特别幽默,有才华,我非常的喜欢赵勤的做音乐,他的画我也非常喜欢。去年在成都A4艺术中心光谱的展览看了《刺痛我》,我挺喜欢的。介绍一下那一批摄影做完以后是怎么离开美术界到另外的系统去了?

 

 刘:对我个人来说这是一个很自然的过程,做图片应该是2000年左右,做了三四年,也参加了一些重要的图片的展览。2001年的时候,冯小刚的电影《大腕》有一场戏,他想拍,但是觉得实现不了,就想怎么办,有人建议可以做动画。那时候我已经和赵勤做了一些动画短片,因为当时我们在一个公司打工,天天见面,天天聊这些事情,这样做起来就比较方便。所以《大腕》剧组里面有人介绍我们来做这个动画,这是我第一次跟电影发生关系,触电了。《大腕》里面大概有3分钟的动画,是我和赵勤两个人来完成的。对我来说,电影是一件非常有意思的事情,那么动画电影对我来说,是更加有吸引力的,因为是画画出生的,喜欢绘画的东西。那时候,隐约有一种愿望:是不是应该拍一部自己的电影?2002年,孟京辉看了《大腕》里面的动画,也找我们来为他的电影《像鸡毛一样飞》做了一分钟的动画。为什么放弃继续做图片摄影?因为我是作者,创作的人,从我自身来讲,做图片好像该说的话已经说完了,继续这样说对我没有挑战了,不刺激了。作品只是在那个形式里面不停的重复生产。所以那时我就在想,什么艺术形式更有意思?我觉得还是电影更能吸引我,电影是一门综合的艺术。到了2003年,也是一个机缘巧合,我平时画一点四格漫画。我的一个朋友看了非常喜欢,他和上海的电视台有合作关系,那时候国内动画片刚刚起步,他来牵线成立动画公司,我们与上海文广合作了一个365集的电视系列片。但是,说实话,后来这个公司把我给弄惨了。



 张:折腾了几年? 

 

刘:4365集啊,这四年我在做同一个作品,而且这个作品电视台要审的,改来改去改来改去,已经不是你自己要的东西了,最后变得很无趣了,所以2007年《虫虫》的动画片做完了。 

 

 张:当时您有团队吗?还是一个人做? 刘:你说《刺痛我》吗?《刺痛我》是这样的,我自己先来做前期工作。我把场景设定、人物设定、台本、全部画好以后。就想组个团队的来继续做,我在南京动画资源有很多,因为我在动画公司呆了很多年。所以我就找我的画设计稿朋友过来,给他们我的前期设定的稿子,然后他们分头去画。可是到了汇总的时候一看,发现风格统一不了,5个人画的就有5种风格。后来我总结了一下:第一,我的设定的风格是写实的,二维写实的风格对一个加工片动画公司的原画和设计稿来说,难度非常大。他们很多不是画画的出身的,他们就是学动画出身的,师傅带徒弟的那种方式,写实造型能力对他们来说是很难的。第二,因为那是我的特别个人风格的东西,没法走流水线。我只好决定自己一个人去完成《刺痛我》。 

 

张:当初那个设计稿和成片差距大吗? 

 

刘:不大。 张:画面效果看,我以为是出自学版画专业的。有点套色、木刻的感觉。空间的关系特别好。我喜欢那种月亮前枯的树枝的感觉。我觉得这个是和你这个主题、和左小祖咒的音乐,特别有那种调调,心里边有一种隐隐痛的东西。这个是艺术家能把握的东西。 

 

刘:其实这也是我们画画的有优势的地方。比如,我做《刺痛我》,我的自信首先来自我的美术,美术设定、色彩修养。包括画面的细致程度,肯定我会自信的。应该可以和国际上优秀的二维的动画片放在一起看的。我学国画,在学校学习勾了很多的线条,知道线条应该怎样去合理的组织。画面的构图,构图其实就是电影里面的镜头,镜头感,所以这些都是我们学画画的作者去做电影的优势。 

 

张:这个片子周期跨度是两年时间吗? 

 

刘:三年。 张:在后期制作中改动大吗? 

 

刘:因为是我一个人做的,所以花了三年的时间。做365集电视片的四年,使我掌握一些了动画片从头到尾的制作经验,如果没有那个四年,就没有《刺痛我》。虽然我有自信说,我一个人来做一部动画电影。但是,制作中的很多环节,我都需要从头去熟悉,从写剧本到最后片子输出。我制作《刺痛我》,就是不断改动不断学习的一个过程。 



当代艺术和独立动画 

 

张:《刺痛我》之前是不是还有一些短片? 

 

刘:有啊,有一些实验性的。参加一些艺术展览。跟电影没关系,属于当代艺术范畴的。 

 

张:从短片到长片的转变,您认为有哪些最重要的步骤,包括心理的、观念上、语言上的重要的转变? 

 

刘:当初我决定做《刺痛我》,首先明确是要做长片的。短片我也实践过,我做的最长的一个短片是半小时,大概花了半年的时间。我认为短片不足够表达的你要的内容、主题。所以当时设定《刺痛我》肯定是个长片,只有长片才能成为一个工业化的电影作品。短片可以作为一个艺术作品,或者作为短片电影。而且制作长片,对于一个作者来讲,要求会更高一点,就像短篇小说和长篇说一样。要制作一个长时间的电影作品,需要的条件也更多一点,外部条件也更多一点,资金要更多一点,周期要更长一点,准备要更足一点。而且长片是要有故事的,是一个剧情片。没有哪个长篇是非叙事的,这是不太可行的。所以,涉及到一个讲故事的问题,这其实又是一个大问题。我们虽然是画画出身的,但是故事不一定能讲好。

 

 张:那就是说这个长片的编剧,您是第一次做编剧?

 

 刘:对!但是我以前也写小说。后来,我和赵勤他们也玩过乐队。一次朋友们聊天说,我前面做过那些,就是为电影做准备的。电影是一个综合的东西。视觉啊,平面啊,听觉啊,都是有的。所以,电影是非常有意思的。  



转型期与水墨动画 

 

张:从一个当代艺术家转向导演,这当中的身份,包括它们的角度,你认为有哪些差异?

 

 刘:这可能在外界看来是有差异的。对我自己来说没有任何差异。《刺痛我》我也是当一件艺术作品来做,只不过它是用电影的形式来表达的。对我来说创作是一样的。如果画一张画,是一张绘画作品。那《刺痛我》是画了成千上万张它还是一件艺术作品。它们是一样的所以,这是一个很顺其自然的过程。

 

 张:我就在想,怎么从艺术家的工作室,向电影的公司、团队,怎么系统化的工业生产?我认为光谱 ”这个展览对中国的艺术家有个提示独立动画是如何生产出来的?我从05年左右开始做3D动画,我先后做了四个片子,其中每一个步骤,比如说,我做的第一个短片8分钟,第二个34分钟,第三个12分钟,第四个15分钟,然后我要做一个儿童的,和儿子合作关于二维与三维结合的动画。 

 

刘:对,这个非常好。 

 

张:我也正在构思和儿子的合作项目《量量历险记》,儿童在世界里的历险和旅行。我看了缪晓春,他当年是摄影转动画,我是从绘画到动画。你们从摄影,音乐,从摇滚乐往这里面转,其实很多人在不同的方向最后走向一个道路。08年我的片子出来的时候,大家一看,哇,这个太狠了。在2005年以来,包括你的《刺痛我》出来,可能大家看到独立动画、实验动画带来某种革命性的工作。我也是从小喜欢画画,从绘画当中我得到很多方法,喜欢电影喜欢音乐,这些经验让你发现,该做这个东西。 

 

刘:对,就是一吐为快,憋在心里头久了必须要吐出来的,就是一个时机和过程。

 

 张:从光谱到荷兰电影节、亚太三年展、深圳独立动画双年展,这种工作会把独立动画、实验动画推向国际化,我也希望在时间允许情况下,您以后能帮我们带一下工作室因为我想这个是今天必须完成的事,可能未来成为当代艺术一个很重要的媒介,就像我们在90年代也不知道绘画有这样的一个发展,现在动画也是,实验动画到今天怎么超越?我觉得《刺痛我》它有一种提示,就是在长片当中,他其实就是个纪录,就是国内独立动画电影当中还是第一个做那么长的片子,我觉得这个是一个重要的提示。 

 

刘:从国际上来讲,真正为中国动画带来新面孔得到承认的,大都是中国的独立动画。很多年前,独立动画的短片已经入围昂西动画节的短片的竞赛单元。法国的昂西动画节,世界最重要的动画电影节,《刺痛我》2010年入围昂西动画节的长片的竞赛单元。

 

 张:我想知道上海美术电影制片厂现在如何了? 

 

刘:不,是上海美术电影制片厂。但是他现在也好像公司化了,前几年还做了《葫芦兄弟》呀。追述到《大闹天宫》的时代,中国的动画是厉害的。在国际上大家都很关注的。1985年荷兰动画电影节做的一个中国专场,当时放映的就是《大闹天宫》和其他水墨动画,影响力非常大,但是85年以后,中国动画就消失了,所以他们很奇怪中国动画突然就没有了。2009年的时候《刺痛我》正好也在荷兰动画电影节首映,电影节主席戈本先生在开幕的时候就讲了这一点,他是特别关注中国的动画的人,所以他也特别高兴看到中国动画又回来了。做《刺痛我》,其实我的初衷是很简单的,作为一个艺术作品,用了一个电影的方式来完成,如果卖点钱就已经很好了。之后影片所带来的一些荣誉,是我以前所没有预料的。荷兰动画电影节帮助我跨进了电影平台,所以我很感谢戈本先生,直接帮助我到了国际的电影节平台。之后《刺痛我》得了12个国际国内的奖。 从我自身来讲我以前是画画的,现在是导演,在外界来看是这个身份转变是很大的,我自己没觉得,自己觉得很自然的,我同样在创作,实际上我去了电影节上,做《刺痛我》的放映和交流,外界来看,你就是一个导演。我下面的电影创作,很电影化,和你这个3D长片一样,需要方方面面的环节,包括发行公司,《刺痛我》也签了发行公司。发行现在不是特别理想,DVD是第二步,后续会上院线。还会做《刺痛我》的第二部。

 

 张:这部片子的思想性很强,从底层命运,小人物的视点,包括摇滚音乐,左小祖咒这种美学的基调,他的氛围和这个片子的观念还是很能让人有共鸣,其实是纪录片似的动画。 刘:我的创作体验是,一部好一点的电影里面,至少要有一处要和观众能产生情感上的共鸣的,这是很重要的。因为是剧情片,用什么手段什么方法去制作,重要的是把故事讲好。这是我创作的体验。  

 



球化交流与传播 

 

张:我们以前主要是参加国内国外的美术馆展览和在当代艺术系统流通。参加电影节很失望的是觉得国内的很多动画片你会觉得挺幼稚的,动漫产业化带来一些思考,但是问题在哪里呢?动画电影节我经常看一些片子获奖,我也获了奖,但是我觉得放在一起特别别扭,比如说我们看乌尔善的《画皮2》。我知道成都有个动画公司也在做上院线的3D动画短片。赵半狄也做争取上院线的。艺术家都希望有一个重大的突破空间,它是一个重要的改变,一旦你上院线,电影节会打通很多道路,通过这个行业,新媒体、动画开一些窗户,这里面是充满着无限可能。

 

 刘:必须是有几个特别好的作品,有几个特别优秀的导演,来做这样的事情,能够把这个行业带到一个高度。比如说我们现在一年有五、六部优秀的长片,然后每年都能有高票房,都能参加重要的电影节。

 

 张:荷兰动画电影节主席戈本上次来成都作的讲座也谈到85年以后中国动画缺席国际舞台,这个其实也是中国动画的一种耻辱

 

 刘:因为那个时候开始做加工片了,也是跟国家体制改革有关系,没有按原来的计划经济了,没有了保障,这没有办法。 

 

张:其实文化政策的扶持很重要。

 

 刘:独立动画最近比较热闹,活动比较多,一下子给人感觉很蓬勃。作者也开始多了,成熟的作品也开始多了。所以大家都在想,那些国家投入那么多做的动画动漫基地,实际上它们没有更好的作为。我在电影节上,碰到过官员聊过,他们也在想,做了那么大的努力,花了那么多钱在动漫基地,却没有做出一部在国际上有影响的动画电影。其实中国优秀的人很多,能有几个到了你我这个年纪,画了那么多年,用积累多年的艺术的修养转过来做动画、做电影,那么跟 “喜羊羊那些,会完全是不一样的。

 

 张:我觉得在以后的电影节和影展应该分类,还是要把独立动画和商业动画分开。

 

 刘:还是说昂西动画电影节吧,入围竞赛的有5部电影,它会分配,两部是偏商业的,像迪斯尼的,好莱坞的,肯定有两部到三部日本的动画片也是相对商业的,或者说商业偏艺术的,然后一到两部很艺术的。国际电影节也是有侧重的,有非常艺术的,有非常商业的。像欧洲的动画电影节偏艺术的就很多。 

 

张:那天你在上课,我也在同时放片子,我下午放了两个片子,让学生做个案研究,明天我给研究生上课也要讨论这个片子,我觉得在动画电影中偏纪录片的形式,有关于图像方法、符号学、叙事逻辑等等可以讨论的东西。  

 



作为工业化生产的动画 

 

张:您如果做《刺痛我》第二部是想拍什么东西呢? 

 

刘:那是一个发生在未来的故事。和《刺痛我》不一样的一个故事。我对第二部的要求,除了艺术性以外,就是故事要非常好看。无论画面还是音乐等,要比《刺痛我》好看。 

 

张:那第二步投资方的问题呢? 

 

刘:我这次去台湾的金马奖的创投会就带《刺痛我2》这个项目去,金马的创投很好,有三天的时间,给你一个房间,和对你项目有兴趣的投资人制片公司会谈,就是提供这样的一个机会和平台,促成一些电影项目的实施。包括我马上去的罗马电影节也是参加这样的创投会议。

 

 张:我觉得能走出这一步,从一个地下导演”“独立导演往这个公共性转,往这个寻求更广阔的空间,就是把这种独立的气质怎么向大众的传播里面转。

 

 刘: “地下”“地上的说法对我而言不那么重要。因为,独立对我来说就是创作自由,仅此而已,它可以是十万一部电影,也可以是一亿一部电影,都可以称为独立电影。所以找一个尊重你的创作的投资方很有必要,我去年跟一个法国公司签过一个合同,合同的第一条,就是要求投资方,不允许干涉导演的创作。他为什么要跟你合作呢?首先是喜欢你的电影,欣赏你的创作。 

 

张:我跟融资方签的第一个就是,首先尊重我的自由,不要干预我的创作,不然就不跟你合作。我上次谈了两起,要换我剧本,要换我这个,要换我那个,我说你走吧

 

 刘:那跟你有什么关系呢? 

 

张:是啊!我说这个我的团队我说了算啊,我说我做艺术就是要自由啊。但是我另外也衍生一个问题,独立影像展中很多艺术家是通过获奖进入到这种选拔体系,跟公司电影产生一种联系,比如说戈本他们带来的获奖作品后来多半就是做的公司,它进入电影这个渠道,然后有更广阔的平台,从你的获奖,包括我的朋友拍纪录片的获奖,获奖之后,怎么去拓展空间,怎么去转入公共平台,我说的那个地下可能没有劣势,就是是一种更具有批判性的,尤其是在现在中国的电影审查力度下,是不是应该有一种更温和或者是更巧妙,更隐含的某种批判性,政治立场,或者是某种观念 

 

刘:其实大家多少都考虑过这个问题,电影能够上院线公映,这是它最传统的传播方式。是电影的价值最大化的体现,所以每一位导演都希望自己的影片能成功上院线。不过,我在电影创作的时候,不会去想太多市场的事情。创作的时候比较纯粹,我觉得什么题材让我感兴趣,让我有很多的思考,我才会去创作它。等到创作完成以后,最好交给专业的发行营销公司去操作影片上院线的事情,《刺痛我》我也作出努力希望能够进院线,能有更多的人看到。

 

 张:你看今年的这些片子,像《白鹿原》其实我觉得剪得七零八落的,但这个片子,我觉得可能很多导演不喜欢,他即使很多瑕疵,即使剪掉很多,但是你依然看到电影局在做某种妥协。 

 

刘:审查没有对我产生很多影响。《刺痛我》讲的是以现实题材为主题的故事,这个主题我觉得故事必须要这样说。但是,我感兴趣的电影类型很多,我喜欢类型片,比如我准备拍一个未来的科幻的故事,也可能拍一个黑帮片,犯罪片。所以我觉得审查制度对我而言,不会有太多的顾虑。我更多去考虑怎么样把这个类型片做好,怎么样把这个黑帮片做的地道,做出我要的那种感觉,其他的,应该交给我的制片人去做,这个是比较理想的工作方式

 

 张: 您参与南京独立电影节多吗? 

 

刘:《刺痛我》2010年参加的,因为我生活在南京,电影节期间很多外地导演朋友会南京,大家会聚一聚喝点吃点。 张:今年的北京独立电影节,我去当了评委。关于电影性的问题,归于本体,然后我在谈到电影跨学科、当代艺术系统怎么去,我们是从当代艺术系统进入电影这个学科,过去我们是在基金会、美术馆画廊里面流通,我也只是偶尔参加一些动画节。我们突然发现,美术电影、动画电影有这么大的空间 刘:我觉得非常好,你们邀请过来代课,我非常乐意来和学们分享动画创作的经验。我看出来刚才你对学生的那种表达,很自然的那种关怀。同年轻人分享我们经历过的经验,这是很有价值的事情。 

 

张:在很多时候我觉得他们也在教我们,我们之间是平等的,看到同学,就像看到我的孩子,去年新媒体一年级同学进入学校,这不是我的孩子吗?我们92念上的大学,他们92生,1992年到2011年已经20年。我从北京回到学校,其实这个地方是很偏僻的,比如说把你请来,把我的很多国际的国内的朋友请来,像卡塞尔美术学院、巴黎美院、维也纳大学、英国德比大学等等,这一个共享的公共平台。 

 

刘:对,现在真是不一样,包括今天的这个展览也是。以前我们上大学的时候没有这种机会。现在学生的机会很多,信息很多。我跟我们班的学生们讲,只要把你的作品做好就行,展览或者电影节就会向你开放的。

 

 张:全球化带来的一个共享,一体化的信息传播的国际舞台。一开始我希望同学立足传统,展开国际化的视野建立自己的工作方法和知识谱系,可能对他们来说,有那么多优秀的艺术家来上课,像梁绍基、李杨、乌苏拉教授等等,上次优秀的年轻艺术家辛鑫,带来很多不一样的东西,很期待未来。 

 

刘:新媒体艺术在影像上,为当代艺术提供了更多可能性的。其他艺术样式大家已经玩的很成熟了,新媒体艺术有更多可能性和创作力。 张:你现在团队有多少人? 

 

刘:团队是松散的,这个项目需要十个人,那就十个,这个只要三个,那就三个人。针对某一个项目,这个项目是写实的,那就写实的人,我工作室,也做一些商业项目,比如说3D,或者说一些中国传统风格的商业动画。 

 

张:我的工作室,也是长年合作的一直在身边,现在找了一些中国美院过来的,包括王维思。 

 

刘:你工作室的力量是很强了,当初我也想把王维思挖过来的。 张:这个孩子很有才。 

 

刘:我们通过邮件联系过,现在你近水楼台了。这需要几年的积累,培养一批优秀的核心的人才。比如说做一部电影,需要好的人才形成一个有效的团队,大家合作会默契,这非常好,我希望通过一部好的电影,壮大自己的团队。  

 

 张:您和南京当代艺术圈交往吗?

 

 刘:现在也是很密切的,《刺痛我》做完以后,我偶尔还会参加一些当代艺术展览。

 

 张:从一个当代艺术家进入动画进入电影,再回到当代艺术圈,我在深圳的独立动画的双年展,其中一个章节,我想写一个,从绘画到动画,从图形图像的一个变化,从观念的延伸,从艺术家的实验,另外还有一个章节就是谈虚拟艺术的章节,像3D电影,需要大量的人力和物力来做,这方面缪晓春老师做得早一些,这个典型一些,需要一个团队可能一两年做一个片子。有一次在谈绘画和动画的联系,我觉得类型片故事片是一个类型。动画里面有历史感的这种类型少,我觉得这种类型会启发我,独立动画实验动画,开了那么多口子,所以我和王春辰何金芳策划独立首届深圳动画双年展,我们也要做一个水墨动画的专题,把文献收集起来,做一个和亚太三年展平行的东西,我们考虑过把水墨动画和今天的关系做一个对比。独立动画从当代艺术生长出来,动画产业的区别在哪里?知识谱系、政治立场、动画的念有哪些差异? 

 

刘:这也是我特别感兴趣的。我做过一些商业的多媒体项目,其实它涉及得面很宽,最核心的就是一个,新从两方面理解,一从设计新,第二科技手段新。包括一些,音乐会,品牌发布会,一些实景演出。我曾经参与策划过一个裸眼3D”的项目, 用投影把整座山照亮,播放山体坍塌的3D动画。 

 

儿童动画项目 

 

张:我最近在准备和儿子完成一个动画项目,这是我与他多年的相处,看到他的绘画中一些有意思的地方,有点惊喜还有几分的敬畏和恐惧,我想用这个片子来讨论父与子的成长、交流和旅行,这是一个对话和交流,这个工作充满了挑战性。 

 

 刘:你跟我有点一样,我跟我儿子已经合作了两部动画短片了。以后,我们可以给他们两个做个展览,既有平面的也有影像的展览。

 

 张:你是标注两个人的作品吗?我觉得可以署名两个人共同的作品?

 

 刘:两个,这次西安动画节标注的是两个人的名字的。

 

 张:好啊!因为概念几乎是他的。他的每一张画就是很好的概念稿设计,王维喜欢的不得了,让他也享有这个版权,让他未来就知道,他很早的作品就切入当代艺术,我想打两个人的作品,也是我对他的一种尊重,不是因为是自己的儿子,如果是其他的孩子,我也会这么去做。

 

 刘:因为是自己的儿子,他一直可以在你的身边,而且他的画感动了我。  张:我很热爱教育,从小是自我教育。少年时学武术、书法,然后学油画。考试很艰难,我后来做当代艺术,到国际上去做展览交流,到今天的当代艺术与教育,今天站在这个角度还是要对教育做出一点自己的工作。我不太喜欢微博上全是指责与抱怨,应该作点正事,重在实践,哪怕说几句有用的话去影响学生,去改变身边的人和事。这次我带学生去成都看徐冰的讲座和展览,我对学生说:四年看一次徐冰老师的展览就够了,你见过真正高人的气象,足 

 



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    做动画是一个很自然的过程

 

  对话者: 刘健 张小涛 

   时间20121023日晚20002130

   地点:四川美术学院新媒体艺术系图书室 

   整理:罗劬 易雨潇

 

 

    由摄影到动画 

 

张:90年代以来在一些当代艺术的杂志上看到您和赵勤做的涂鸦风格的图片,特别幽默。发现您和南京的其他艺术家很不一样,南京艺术家大多有才华,有文人的慵懒,没有您的这么理性。赵勤让我觉得特别亲,他老家是四川的,哥们儿也特别幽默,有才华,我非常的喜欢赵勤的做音乐,他的画我也非常喜欢。去年在成都A4艺术中心光谱的展览看了《刺痛我》,我挺喜欢的。介绍一下那一批摄影做完以后是怎么离开美术界到另外的系统去了?

 

 刘:对我个人来说这是一个很自然的过程,做图片应该是2000年左右,做了三四年,也参加了一些重要的图片的展览。2001年的时候,冯小刚的电影《大腕》有一场戏,他想拍,但是觉得实现不了,就想怎么办,有人建议可以做动画。那时候我已经和赵勤做了一些动画短片,因为当时我们在一个公司打工,天天见面,天天聊这些事情,这样做起来就比较方便。所以《大腕》剧组里面有人介绍我们来做这个动画,这是我第一次跟电影发生关系,触电了。《大腕》里面大概有3分钟的动画,是我和赵勤两个人来完成的。对我来说,电影是一件非常有意思的事情,那么动画电影对我来说,是更加有吸引力的,因为是画画出生的,喜欢绘画的东西。那时候,隐约有一种愿望:是不是应该拍一部自己的电影?2002年,孟京辉看了《大腕》里面的动画,也找我们来为他的电影《像鸡毛一样飞》做了一分钟的动画。为什么放弃继续做图片摄影?因为我是作者,创作的人,从我自身来讲,做图片好像该说的话已经说完了,继续这样说对我没有挑战了,不刺激了。作品只是在那个形式里面不停的重复生产。所以那时我就在想,什么艺术形式更有意思?我觉得还是电影更能吸引我,电影是一门综合的艺术。到了2003年,也是一个机缘巧合,我平时画一点四格漫画。我的一个朋友看了非常喜欢,他和上海的电视台有合作关系,那时候国内动画片刚刚起步,他来牵线成立动画公司,我们与上海文广合作了一个365集的电视系列片。但是,说实话,后来这个公司把我给弄惨了。

 

 张:折腾了几年? 

 

刘:4365集啊,这四年我在做同一个作品,而且这个作品电视台要审的,改来改去改来改去,已经不是你自己要的东西了,最后变得很无趣了,所以2007年《虫虫》的动画片做完了。

 

  张:当时您有团队吗?还是一个人做? 刘:你说《刺痛我》吗?《刺痛我》是这样的,我自己先来做前期工作。我把场景设定、人物设定、台本、全部画好以后。就想组个团队的来继续做,我在南京动画资源有很多,因为我在动画公司呆了很多年。所以我就找我的画设计稿朋友过来,给他们我的前期设定的稿子,然后他们分头去画。可是到了汇总的时候一看,发现风格统一不了,5个人画的就有5种风格。后来我总结了一下:第一,我的设定的风格是写实的,二维写实的风格对一个加工片动画公司的原画和设计稿来说,难度非常大。他们很多不是画画的出身的,他们就是学动画出身的,师傅带徒弟的那种方式,写实造型能力对他们来说是很难的。第二,因为那是我的特别个人风格的东西,没法走流水线。我只好决定自己一个人去完成《刺痛我》。

 

 张:当初那个设计稿和成片差距大吗? 

 

刘:不大。 

 

张:画面效果看,我以为是出自学版画专业的。有点套色、木刻的感觉。空间的关系特别好。我喜欢那种月亮前枯的树枝的感觉。我觉得这个是和你这个主题、和左小祖咒的音乐,特别有那种调调,心里边有一种隐隐痛的东西。这个是艺术家能把握的东西。 刘:其实这也是我们画画的有优势的地方。比如,我做《刺痛我》,我的自信首先来自我的美术,美术设定、色彩修养。包括画面的细致程度,肯定我会自信的。应该可以和国际上优秀的二维的动画片放在一起看的。我学国画,在学校学习勾了很多的线条,知道线条应该怎样去合理的组织。画面的构图,构图其实就是电影里面的镜头,镜头感,所以这些都是我们学画画的作者去做电影的优势。

 

 张:这个片子周期跨度是两年时间吗? 

 

刘:三年。 张:在后期制作中改动大吗? 刘:因为是我一个人做的,所以花了三年的时间。做365集电视片的四年,使我掌握一些了动画片从头到尾的制作经验,如果没有那个四年,就没有《刺痛我》。虽然我有自信说,我一个人来做一部动画电影。但是,制作中的很多环节,我都需要从头去熟悉,从写剧本到最后片子输出。我制作《刺痛我》,就是不断改动不断学习的一个过程。

 

 当代艺术和独立动画 张:《刺痛我》之前是不是还有一些短片?

 

 刘:有啊,有一些实验性的。参加一些艺术展览。跟电影没关系,属于当代艺术范畴的。

 

 张:从短片到长片的转变,您认为有哪些最重要的步骤,包括心理的、观念上、语言上的重要的转变?

 

 刘:当初我决定做《刺痛我》,首先明确是要做长片的。短片我也实践过,我做的最长的一个短片是半小时,大概花了半年的时间。我认为短片不足够表达的你要的内容、主题。所以当时设定《刺痛我》肯定是个长片,只有长片才能成为一个工业化的电影作品。短片可以作为一个艺术作品,或者作为短片电影。而且制作长片,对于一个作者来讲,要求会更高一点,就像短篇小说和长篇说一样。要制作一个长时间的电影作品,需要的条件也更多一点,外部条件也更多一点,资金要更多一点,周期要更长一点,准备要更足一点。而且长片是要有故事的,是一个剧情片。没有哪个长篇是非叙事的,这是不太可行的。所以,涉及到一个讲故事的问题,这其实又是一个大问题。我们虽然是画画出身的,但是故事不一定能讲好。

 

 张:您是第一次做编剧?

 

 刘:对!但是我以前也写小说。后来,我和赵勤他们也玩过乐队。一次朋友们聊天说,我前面做过那些,就是为电影做准备的。电影是一个综合的东西。视觉啊,平面啊,听觉啊,都是有的。所以,电影是非常有意思的。 

 

 转型期与水墨动画

 

 张:从一个当代艺术家转向导演,这当中的身份,包括它们的角度,你认为有哪些差异? 刘:这可能在外界看来是有差异的。对我自己来说没有任何差异。《刺痛我》我也是当一件艺术作品来做,只不过它是用电影的形式来表达的。对我来说创作是一样的。如果画一张画,是一张绘画作品。那《刺痛我》是画了成千上万张它还是一件艺术作品。它们是一样的所以,这是一个很顺其自然的过程。 张:我就在想,怎么从艺术家的工作室,向电影的公司、团队,怎么系统化的工业生产?我认为光谱 ”这个展览对中国的艺术家有个提示独立动画是如何生产出来的?我从05年左右开始做3D动画,我先后做了四个片子,其中每一个步骤,比如说,我做的第一个短片8分钟,第二个34分钟,第三个12分钟,第四个15分钟,然后我要做一个儿童的,和儿子合作关于二维与三维结合的动画。

 

 刘:对,这个非常好。 

 

张:我也正在构思和儿子的合作项目《量量历险记》,儿童在世界里的历险和旅行。我看了缪晓春,他当年是摄影转动画,我是从绘画到动画。你们从摄影,音乐,从摇滚乐往这里面转,其实很多人在不同的方向最后走向一个道路。08年我的片子出来的时候,大家一看,哇,这个太狠了。在2005年以来,包括你的《刺痛我》出来,可能大家看到独立动画、实验动画带来某种革命性的工作。我也是从小喜欢画画,从绘画当中我得到很多方法,喜欢电影喜欢音乐,这些经验让你发现,该做这个东西。 刘:对,就是一吐为快,憋在心里头久了必须要吐出来的,就是一个时机和过程。

 

 张:从光谱到荷兰电影节、亚太三年展、深圳独立动画双年展,这种工作会把独立动画、实验动画推向国际化,我也希望在时间允许情况下,您以后能帮我们带一下工作室因为我想这个是今天必须完成的事,可能未来成为当代艺术一个很重要的媒介,就像我们在90年代也不知道绘画有这样的一个发展,现在动画也是,实验动画到今天怎么超越?我觉得《刺痛我》它有一种提示,就是在长片当中,他其实就是个纪录,就是国内独立动画电影当中还是第一个做那么长的片子,我觉得这个是一个重要的提示。

 

 刘:从国际上来讲,真正为中国动画带来新面孔得到承认的,大都是中国的独立动画。很多年前,独立动画的短片已经入围昂西动画节的短片的竞赛单元。法国的昂西动画节,世界最重要的动画电影节,《刺痛我》2010年入围昂西动画节的长片的竞赛单元。

 

 张:我想知道上海美术电影制片厂现在如何了?

 

 刘:不,是上海美术电影制片厂。但是他现在也好像公司化了,前几年还做了《葫芦兄弟》呀。追述到《大闹天宫》的时代,中国的动画是厉害的。在国际上大家都很关注的。1985年荷兰动画电影节做的一个中国专场,当时放映的就是《大闹天宫》和其他水墨动画,影响力非常大,但是85年以后,中国动画就消失了,所以他们很奇怪中国动画突然就没有了。2009年的时候《刺痛我》正好也在荷兰动画电影节首映,电影节主席戈本先生在开幕的时候就讲了这一点,他是特别关注中国的动画的人,所以他也特别高兴看到中国动画又回来了。做《刺痛我》,其实我的初衷是很简单的,作为一个艺术作品,用了一个电影的方式来完成,如果卖点钱就已经很好了。之后影片所带来的一些荣誉,是我以前所没有预料的。荷兰动画电影节帮助我跨进了电影平台,所以我很感谢戈本先生,直接帮助我到了国际的电影节平台。之后《刺痛我》得了12个国际国内的奖。 从我自身来讲我以前是画画的,现在是导演,在外界来看是这个身份转变是很大的,我自己没觉得,自己觉得很自然的,我同样在创作,实际上我去了电影节上,做《刺痛我》的放映和交流,外界来看,你就是一个导演。我下面的电影创作,很电影化,和你这个3D长片一样,需要方方面面的环节,包括发行公司,《刺痛我》也签了发行公司。发行现在不是特别理想,DVD是第二步,后续会上院线。还会做《刺痛我》的第二部。 

 

张:这部片子的思想性很强,从底层命运,小人物的视点,包括摇滚音乐,左小祖咒这种美学的基调,他的氛围和这个片子的观念还是很能让人有共鸣,其实是纪录片似的动画。

 

 刘:我的创作体验是,一部好一点的电影里面,至少要有一处要和观众能产生情感上的共鸣的,这是很重要的。因为是剧情片,用什么手段什么方法去制作,重要的是把故事讲好。这是我创作的体验。

 

  全球化交流与传播 

 

张:我们以前主要是参加国内国外的美术馆展览和在当代艺术系统流通。参加电影节很失望的是觉得国内的很多动画片你会觉得挺幼稚的,动漫产业化带来一些思考,但是问题在哪里呢?动画电影节我经常看一些片子获奖,我也获了奖,但是我觉得放在一起特别别扭,比如说我们看乌尔善的《画皮2》。我知道成都有个动画公司也在做上院线的3D动画短片。赵半狄也做争取上院线的。艺术家都希望有一个重大的突破空间,它是一个重要的改变,一旦你上院线,电影节会打通很多道路,通过这个行业,新媒体、动画开一些窗户,这里面是充满着无限可能。

 

 刘:必须是有几个特别好的作品,有几个特别优秀的导演,来做这样的事情,能够把这个行业带到一个高度。比如说我们现在一年有五、六部优秀的长片,然后每年都能有高票房,都能参加重要的电影节。 张:荷兰动画电影节主席戈本上次来成都作的讲座也谈到85年以后中国动画缺席国际舞台,这个其实也是中国动画的一种耻辱 刘:因为那个时候开始做加工片了,也是跟国家体制改革有关系,没有按原来的计划经济了,没有了保障,这没有办法。

 

 张:其实文化政策的扶持很重要。 刘:独立动画最近比较热闹,活动比较多,一下子给人感觉很蓬勃。作者也开始多了,成熟的作品也开始多了。所以大家都在想,那些国家投入那么多做的动画动漫基地,实际上它们没有更好的作为。我在电影节上,碰到过官员聊过,他们也在想,做了那么大的努力,花了那么多钱在动漫基地,却没有做出一部在国际上有影响的动画电影。其实中国优秀的人很多,能有几个到了你我这个年纪,画了那么多年,用积累多年的艺术的修养转过来做动画、做电影,那么跟 “喜羊羊那些,会完全是不一样的。 

 

张:我觉得在以后的电影节和影展应该分类,还是要把独立动画和商业动画分开。 刘:还是说昂西动画电影节吧,入围竞赛的有5部电影,它会分配,两部是偏商业的,像迪斯尼的,好莱坞的,肯定有两部到三部日本的动画片也是相对商业的,或者说商业偏艺术的,然后一到两部很艺术的。国际电影节也是有侧重的,有非常艺术的,有非常商业的。像欧洲的动画电影节偏艺术的就很多。 张:那天你在上课,我也在同时放片子,我下午放了两个片子,让学生做个案研究,明天我给研究生上课也要讨论这个片子,我觉得在动画电影中偏纪录片的形式,有关于图像方法、符号学、叙事逻辑等等可以讨论的东西。

 

  作为工业化生产的动画

 

 张:您如果做《刺痛我》第二部是想拍什么东西呢?

 

 刘:那是一个发生在未来的故事,和《刺痛我》不一样的一个故事。我对第二部的要求,除了艺术性以外,就是故事要非常好看。无论画面还是音乐等,要比《刺痛我》好看。

 

 张:那第二步投资方的问题呢?

 

 刘:我这次去台湾的金马奖的创投会就带《刺痛我2》这个项目去,金马的创投很好,有三天的时间,给你一个房间,和对你项目有兴趣的投资人制片公司会谈,就是提供这样的一个机会和平台,促成一些电影项目的实施。包括我马上去的罗马电影节也是参加这样的创投会议。

 

 张:我觉得能走出这一步,从一个地下导演”“独立导演往这个公共性转,往这个寻求更广阔的空间,就是把这种独立的气质怎么向大众的传播里面转。

 

 刘: “地下”“地上的说法对我而言不那么重要。因为,独立对我来说就是创作自由,仅此而已,它可以是十万一部电影,也可以是一亿一部电影,都可以称为独立电影。所以找一个尊重你的创作的投资方很有必要,我去年跟一个法国公司签过一个合同,合同的第一条,就是要求投资方,不允许干涉导演的创作。他为什么要跟你合作呢?首先是喜欢你的电影,欣赏你的创作。

 

 张:我跟融资方签的第一个就是,首先尊重我的自由,不要干预我的创作,不然就不跟你合作。我上次谈了两起,要换我剧本,要换我这个,要换我那个,我说你走吧

 

 刘:那跟你有什么关系呢? 张:是啊!我说这个我的团队我说了算啊,我说我做艺术就是要自由啊。但是我另外也衍生一个问题,独立影像展中很多艺术家是通过获奖进入到这种选拔体系,跟公司电影产生一种联系,比如说戈本他们带来的获奖作品后来多半就是做的公司,它进入电影这个渠道,然后有更广阔的平台,从你的获奖,包括我的朋友拍纪录片的获奖,获奖之后,怎么去拓展空间,怎么去转入公共平台,我说的那个地下可能没有劣势,就是是一种更具有批判性的,尤其是在现在中国的电影审查力度下,是不是应该有一种更温和或者是更巧妙,更隐含的某种批判性,政治立场,或者是某种观念 刘:其实大家多少都考虑过这个问题,电影能够上院线公映,这是它最传统的传播方式。是电影的价值最大化的体现,所以每一位导演都希望自己的影片能成功上院线。不过,我在电影创作的时候,不会去想太多市场的事情。创作的时候比较纯粹,我觉得什么题材让我感兴趣,让我有很多的思考,我才会去创作它。等到创作完成以后,最好交给专业的发行营销公司去操作影片上院线的事情,《刺痛我》我也作出努力希望能够进院线,能有更多的人看到。

 

 张:你看今年的这些片子,像《白鹿原》其实我觉得剪得七零八落的,但这个片子,我觉得可能很多导演不喜欢,他即使很多瑕疵,即使剪掉很多,但是你依然看到电影局在做某种妥协。

 

 刘:审查没有对我产生很多影响。《刺痛我》讲的是以现实题材为主题的故事,这个主题我觉得故事必须要这样说。但是,我感兴趣的电影类型很多,我喜欢类型片,比如我准备拍一个未来的科幻的故事,也可能拍一个黑帮片,犯罪片。所以我觉得审查制度对我而言,不会有太多的顾虑。我更多去考虑怎么样把这个类型片做好,怎么样把这个黑帮片做的地道,做出我要的那种感觉,其他的,应该交给我的制片人去做,这个是比较理想的工作方式 

 

张: 您参与南京独立电影节多吗? 刘:《刺痛我》2010年参加的,因为我生活在南京,电影节期间很多外地导演朋友会南京,大家会聚一聚喝点吃点。

 

 张:今年的北京独立电影节,我去当了评委。关于电影性的问题,归于本体,然后我在谈到电影跨学科、当代艺术系统怎么去,我们是从当代艺术系统进入电影这个学科,过去我们是在基金会、美术馆画廊里面流通,我也只是偶尔参加一些动画节。我们突然发现,美术电影、动画电影有这么大的空间 刘:我觉得非常好,你们邀请过来代课,我非常乐意来和学们分享动画创作的经验。我看出来刚才你对学生的那种表达,很自然的那种关怀。同年轻人分享我们经历过的经验,这是很有价值的事情。 张:在很多时候我觉得他们也在教我们,我们之间是平等的,看到同学,就像看到我的孩子,去年新媒体一年级同学进入学校,这不是我的孩子吗?我们92念上的大学,他们92生,1992年到2011年已经20年。我从北京回到学校,其实这个地方是很偏僻的,比如说把你请来,把我的很多国际的国内的朋友请来,像卡塞尔美术学院、巴黎美院、维也纳大学、英国德比大学等等,这一个共享的公共平台。

 

 刘:对,现在真是不一样,包括今天的这个展览也是。以前我们上大学的时候没有这种机会。现在学生的机会很多,信息很多。我跟我们班的学生们讲,只要把你的作品做好就行,展览或者电影节就会向你开放的。 张:全球化带来的一个共享,一体化的信息传播的国际舞台。一开始我希望同学立足传统,展开国际化的视野建立自己的工作方法和知识谱系,可能对他们来说,有那么多优秀的艺术家来上课,像梁绍基、李杨、乌苏拉教授等等,上次优秀的年轻艺术家辛鑫,带来很多不一样的东西,很期待未来。

 

 刘:新媒体艺术在影像上,为当代艺术提供了更多可能性的。其他艺术样式大家已经玩的很成熟了,新媒体艺术有更多可能性和创作力。 张:你现在团队有多少人?

 

 刘:团队是松散的,这个项目需要十个人,那就十个,这个只要三个,那就三个人。针对某一个项目,这个项目是写实的,那就写实的人,我工作室,也做一些商业项目,比如说3D,或者说一些中国传统风格的商业动画。

 

 张:我的工作室,也是长年合作的一直在身边,现在找了一些中国美院过来的,包括王维思。 刘:你工作室的力量是很强了,当初我也想把王维思挖过来的。 张:这个孩子很有才。

 

 刘:我们通过邮件联系过,现在你近水楼台了。

 

 刘:这需要几年的积累,培养一批优秀的核心的人才。比如说做一部电影,需要好的人才形成一个有效的团队,大家合作会默契,这非常好,我希望通过一部好的电影,壮大自己的团队。   张:您和南京当代艺术圈交往吗? 

 

刘:现在也是很密切的,《刺痛我》做完以后,我偶尔还会参加一些当代艺术展览。

 

 张:从一个当代艺术家进入动画进入电影,再回到当代艺术圈,我在深圳的独立动画的双年展,其中一个章节,我想写一个,从绘画到动画,从图形图像的一个变化,从观念的延伸,从艺术家的实验,另外还有一个章节就是谈虚拟艺术的章节,像3D电影,需要大量的人力和物力来做,这方面缪晓春老师做得早一些,这个典型一些,需要一个团队可能一两年做一个片子。有一次在谈绘画和动画的联系,我觉得类型片故事片是一个类型。动画里面有历史感的这种类型少,我觉得这种类型会启发我,独立动画实验动画,开了那么多口子,所以我和王春辰何金芳策划独立首届深圳动画双年展,我们也要做一个水墨动画的专题,把文献收集起来,做一个和亚太三年展平行的东西,我们考虑过把水墨动画和今天的关系做一个对比。独立动画从当代艺术生长出来,动画产业的区别在哪里?知识谱系、政治立场、动画的念有哪些差异?

 

 刘:这也是我特别感兴趣的。我做过一些商业的多媒体项目,其实它涉及得面很宽,最核心的就是一个,新从两方面理解,一从设计新,第二科技手段新。包括一些,音乐会,品牌发布会,一些实景演出。我曾经参与策划过一个裸眼3D”的项目, 用投影把整座山照亮,播放山体坍塌的3D动画。

 

 儿童动画项目

 

 张:我最近在准备和儿子完成一个动画项目,这是我与他多年的相处,看到他的绘画中一些有意思的地方,有点惊喜还有几分的敬畏和恐惧,我想用这个片子来讨论父与子的成长、交流和旅行,这是一个对话和交流,这个工作充满了挑战性。 

 

 刘:你跟我有点一样,我跟我儿子已经合作了两部动画短片了。以后,我们可以给他们两个做个展览,既有平面的也有影像的展览。

 

 张:你是标注两个人的作品吗?我觉得可以署名两个人共同的作品? 

 

刘:两个,这次西安动画节标注的是两个人的名字的。

 

 张:好啊!因为概念几乎是他的。他的每一张画就是很好的概念稿设计,王维喜欢的不得了,让他也享有这个版权,让他未来就知道,他很早的作品就切入当代艺术,我想打两个人的作品,也是我对他的一种尊重,不是因为是自己的儿子,如果是其他的孩子,我也会这么去做。 

 

刘:因为是自己的儿子,他一直可以在你的身边,而且他的画感动了我。

 

  张:我很热爱教育,从小是自我教育。少年时学武术、书法,然后学油画。考试很艰难,我后来做当代艺术,到国际上去做展览交流,到今天的当代艺术与教育,今天站在这个角度还是要对教育做出一点自己的工作。我不太喜欢微博上全是指责与抱怨,应该作点正事,重在实践,哪怕说几句有用的话去影响学生,去改变身边的人和事。这次我带学生去成都看徐冰的讲座和展览,我对学生说:四年看一次徐冰老师的展览就够了,你见过真正高人的气象,足 




















 

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