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如何观照实相续(转载)

(2011-01-27 13:30:11)
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杂谈

分类: 克氏言论

Audience: You seem to suggest, Sir, that by ceasing to think, the "I" will be absent.
听众:先生,你似乎暗示,通过停止思想是不存在的。
Krishnamurti: The I is made up of my qualities, my idiosyncracies, my passions, my possessions, my house, my money, my wife, my books. These create the idea of "me", I do not create them. Do you agree?
克:是由我的品质、我的个性、我的情感、我的财物、我的住所、我的金钱、我的妻子、我的书籍构成的。这些创造了的概念。不是我创造了他们。你同意吗?
Audience: We find it difficult to agree.
听众:我们觉得很难同意。
Krishnamurti: If all thoughts were to cease, the thinker would not be there. Therefore, the thoughts produce the thinker.
克:如果所有的思想停止,思想者就不存在了。因此思想创造了思想者。
Audience: All the thoughts and environments are there, but that does not produce the thinker.
听众:所有的思想和环境在,但是这些不创造思想者。
Krishnamurti: How does the thinker come into being?
克:思想者是怎么形成的?
Audience: He is there.
听众:他就在那儿。
Krishnamurti: You take it for granted that he is there. Why do you say so?
克:你认为思想者理所当然存在。为什么?
Audience: That we do not know. You must answer that for us.
听众:这我们不知道。你必须给我们答案。
Krishnamurti: I say the thinker is not there. There is only the action, the thought, and then the thinker comes in.
克:我说思想者不存在。只有行动、思想,然后出现了思想者。
Audience: How does the "I", the thinker, come into being?
听众:、思想者是如何形成的?
Krishnamurti: Now, let us go very slowly. Let us all try to approach the problem with the intention of finding the truth, then discussing it will be worthwhile. We are trying to find out how the thinker, the "I", the "mine", comes into being. Now, first there is perception, then contact, desire, and identification. Before that, the "I" is not in existence.
克:现在让我们慢慢来。让我们大家带着发现真相的意图来解决问题,然后讨论才是有意义的。我们努力了解思想者,我的是如何形成的。现在,首先要有感受,然后有接触、渴望、认同。这之前,是不存在的。
Audience: When my mind is away, I shall not perceive at all. Unless there is first the perceiver, there is no sensation. A dead body cannot perceive, though the eyes and the nerves may be there.
听众:当我心不在焉,我完全不能感受。除非首先有个感受者,不会有感受。死的身体不会感受,尽管眼睛和神经系统都在。
Krishnamurti: You take it for granted that there is a superior entity, and the object it sees.
克:你理所当然地认为有个独立存在的主体,以及它所看到的对象。
Audience: It appears so.
听众:看起来是这样。
Krishnamurti: You say so. You take it for granted that there is. why?
克:你如此说。你理所当然认为有个独立存在的主体。为什么?
Audience: My experience is that without the cooperation of the "I", there is no perception.
听众:我的经验是如果没有的参与,就不会有感受。
Krishnamurti: We cannot talk of pure perception. Perception is always mixed up with the perceiver - it is a joint phenomenon. If we talk of perception, the perceiver is immediately dragged in. It is beyond our experience to speak of perceiving, we never have such an experience as perceiving. You may fall into a deep sleep, when the perceiver does not perceive himself; but in deep sleep there is neither perception nor perceiver. If you know a state in which the perceiver is perceiving himself without bringing in other objects of perception, then only can you validly speak of the perceiver. As long as that state is unknown, we have no right to talk of the perceiver as apart from perception. So, the perceiver and the perception are a joint phenomenon, they are the two sides of the same medal. They are not separate, and we have no right to separate two things which are not separate. We insist on separating the perceiver from the perception when there is no valid ground for it. We know no perceiver without perception, and we know no perception without a perceiver. Therefore, the only valid conclusion is that perception and perceiver, the "I" and the will, are two sides of the same medal, they are two aspects of the same phenomenon, which is neither perception nor perceiver; but an accurate examination of it requires close attention.
克:我们不能谈论纯粹的感受。感受总是和感受者相伴的 这是一个相伴的现象。如果我们谈论感受,感受者立即被拉进来。在我们所经历的事物中没有一种被称作感受者。当你处于深度睡眠时,感受者不会自己去感受;但是在深度睡眠中,既没有感受也没有感受者。如果你知道有一种状态,在这种状态中,只有感受者,不涉及其他对象,只有这时你才能有理由说感受者。只要没有这种状态,我们就没有权利谈论与感受分离的感受者。因此,感受者和感受是一个相伴的现象,他们是一个硬币的两面。他们是不可分的,我们没有权利将不可分的事物分离开来。我们坚持把感受者和感受分开,可是这是没有足够的理由的。没有感受的感受者,没有感受者的感受,这些是我们不知道的。因此,唯一合理的结论是感受和感受者,和感受的愿望,是同一个硬币的两面,是同一个现象的两个方面,既不是感受,也不是感受者;但是要精确地了解这一点需要全神贯注。
Audience: Where does that take us?
听众:这最终会把我们引向哪里?
Audience: We must discover a state in which perceiver and perception do not exist apart, but are part and parcel of the same phenomenon. The act of perceiving, feeling, thinking, brings in the division of perceiver and perception, because that is the basic phenomenon of life. If we can follow up these fleeting moments of perceiving, of knowing, of feeling, of acting, and divorce them from perception on the one side, and the perceiver on the other.
听众:我们必须发现一种状态,在这种状态中感受者和感受无法分开,属于同一现象的两面。感受、情感、思想,带来感受者和感受的分别,因为这是生活的基本现象。我们是否能跟上感受、了解、情感、行动这些稍纵即逝的时刻,然后分别感受和感受者?
Krishnamurti: Sir, this question arose out of the enquiry about the search for God. Obviously, most of us want to know the experience of reality. Surely, it can be known only when the experiencer stops experiencing; because, the experiencer is creating the experience. If the experiencer is creating the experience, then he will create god; therefore, it will not be God. Can the experiencer cease? That is the whole point in this question.
克:先生,这个问题出自对上帝的寻找。显然,我们大部分人想要了解实相。当然,只有在经历者不再制造经历的时候,实相才能被了解;因为,经历者在制造经历。如果经历者在制造经历,那么他会制造上帝;因此,就不是上帝。经历者能停下来吗?这是整个问题的全部要点。
Now, if the experiencer and the experience are a joint phenomenon, which is so obvious, then the experiencer, the actor, the thinker, has to stop thinking. Is that not obvious? So, can the thinker cease to think? Because, when he thinks, he creates, and what he creates is not the real. Therefore, to find out whether there is or there is not reality, God, or what you will, the thought process has to come to an end, which means that the thinker must cease. Whether he is produced by thoughts is irrelevant for the moment. The whole thought process, which includes the thinker, has to come to an end. It is only then that we will find reality. Now, first of all, in bringing that process to an end, how is it to be done, and who is to do it? If the thinker does it, the thinker is still the product of thought. The thinker putting an end to thought is still the continuity of thought. So, what is the thinker to do? Any exertion on his part is still the thinking process. I hope I am making myself clear.
现在,如果经历者和经历是一个相伴的现象,而这是显然的,那么经历者、行动者、思想者必须停止思想。这不是显然的吗?因此,思想者是否能停止思想?因为,在他思想的时候,他在创造,而所创造的不是实相。因此,要发现有或没有实相,上帝,或任何其他你喜欢的词汇,思想的过程必须停止,这也就是说思想者必须停止。思想者是否由思想创造的此刻已经不相干了。整个思想过程,包括思想者,必须终止。只有这时,我们才能发现真相。现在,为了终止思想,首先,如何做?谁做?如果思想者做,思想者仍然是思想的产物。思想者终止思想本身仍然是思想的延续。因此,思想者该做些什么?思想者的任何努力仍然是思想的过程。我希望我说明白了。
Audience: It may even mean resistance to thinking.
听众:这可能意味着拒绝思想。
Krishnamurti: Resistance to thinking, putting down all thinking, is still a form of thinking; therefore the thinker continues, and therefore he can never find the truth. So, what is one to do? This is very serious and requires sustained attention. Any effort on the part of the thinker projects the thinker on a different level. That is a fact. If the thinker, the experiencer, positively or negatively makes an effort to understand reality, he is still maintaining the thought process. So, what is he to do? All that he can do is to realize that any effort on his part, positively or negatively, is detrimental. He must see the truth of that and not merely verbally understand it. He must see that he cannot act, because any action on his part maintains the actor, gives nourishment to the actor; any effort on his part, positively or negatively, gives strength to the "I", the thinker, the experiencer. So all that he can do is not to do anything. Even to wish positively or negatively is still part of thinking. He must see the fact that any effort he makes is detrimental to the discovery of truth. That is the first requirement. If I want to understand, I must be completely free from prejudice; and I cannot be in that state when I am making an effort, negatively or positively. It is extremely hard. It requires a sense of passive awareness in which there is no effort. It is only then that reality can project itself.
克:拒绝思想,放下所有的思想,仍然是一种思想;因此思想者仍然存在,这样他永远不会发现实相。那么,我们该做什么呢?这是个严肃的问题,需要持续的全神贯注。思想者的任何努力都在一个不同的层面上映射着思想者。这是事实。思想者,经历者不论积极还是消极地作意理解实相,就仍然在保持思想的过程。因此,他该做什么呢?他能做的就是意识到他的任何作意,不论是积极的,还是消极的,都是有妨碍的。他必须真正意识到,而不是口头上了解。必须看到他不能作意,因为他本身的任何作意使做者得以保持,使作者得以滋养;他的任何作意,不论是积极的,还是消极的,都使、思想者、经历者得到增强。因此,他唯一能做的事就是什么都不做。即使是愿望,不论是积极的,还是消极的,仍然是思想的一部分。他必须看到他的任何作意对于发现实相都是有妨碍的。这是首要的要求。如果我想要了解,我必须完全摆脱偏见;我不能处于作意的状态,不论是积极的还是消极的。这是极其困难的。觉悟实相要求被动的觉察,在觉察中没有任何作意。这时实相才会显现。
Audience: Concentration upon the projected reality?
听众:集中注意力在显现的实相上?
Krishnamurti: Concentration is another form of exertion, which is still an act of thinking. Therefore, concentration will obviously not lead to reality.
克:集中注意力是另一种形式的作意,这仍然是一种思想。因此,集中注意力显然不会觉悟实相。
Audience: You said that, positively or negatively, any action on the part of the thinker is a projection of the thinker.
听众:你说不论是积极的或消极的,思想者自身的任何作意都是思想者的反映。
Krishnamurti: It is a fact, Sir.
克:这是事实,先生。
Comment from the Audience: In other words, you distinguish between awareness and thought.
听众评论:换句话说,你将觉察和思想分开。
Krishnamurti: I am going at it slowly. When we talk of concentration, concentration implies compulsion, exclusion, interest in something exclusive, in which choice is involved. That implies effort on the part of the thinker, which strengthens the thinker. Is that not a fact? So, we will have to go into the problem of thought. What is thought? Thought is reaction to a condition, which means thought is the response of memory; and how can memory which is the past, create the eternal?
克:我慢慢来。当我们谈论集中注意力时,集中注意力就意味着强制,排斥,只对某些事物感兴趣,这当中涉及了选择。这意味着思想者自身的作意,这强化了思想着。这不是事实嘛?因此我们必须考察思想的问题。思想是什么?思想是对一种环境的反应,这意味着思想是记忆的反映;作为过去的记忆,如何能创造出永恒呢?
Audience: We do not say memory creates it because memory is a thing without awareness.
听众:我们不说记忆创造了永恒,是因为记忆当中是没有觉察的。
Krishnamurti: It is unconscious, subconscious, it comes of its own accord, involuntarily. We are now trying to find out what we mean by thought. To understand this question, don't look into a dictionary, look at yourself, examine yourself. What do you mean by thinking? When you say you are thinking, what are you actually doing? You are reacting. You are reacting through your past memory. Now, what is memory? It is experience, the storing up of yesterday's experience, whether collective or individual. Experience of yesterday is memory. When do we remember an experience? Surely, only when it is not complete. I have an experience, and that experience is incomplete, unfinished, and it leaves a mark. That mark I call memory, and memory responds to a further challenge. This response of memory to a challenge is called thinking.
克:记忆是无意识的,潜意识的,它不自觉地产生。我们在努力弄清楚什么是思想。为了理解这个问题,不要查字典,观察你自己。思想是什么?当你说你在思想的时候,你实际上在作什么?你在做出反应。你通过过去的记忆做出反应。那么,记忆是什么?记忆是经历,是对昨天的经历的储存,不论是共同的经历还是个人的经历。昨天的经历是记忆。我们什么时候回忆一个经历呢?当然,只有在这个经历还在延续的时候。我有个经历,这个经历还未完,它留下了一个烙印。这个烙印,我称之为记忆,记忆对一个新的状况做出反应。这种对新的状况的反应称为思想。
Audience: On what is the mark left?
听众:在哪里留在了烙印?
Krishnamurti: On the "me". After all, the "me", the "mine", is the residue of all memories, collective, racial, individual, and so on. That bundle of memories is the "me", and that "me" with its memory responds. That response is called thinking.
克:留在了上。毕竟,我的是所有记忆的残余,不论是集体记忆,还是种族记忆或个人记忆。这些记忆捆绑在一起就是,这个带着记忆做出反应。这个反应就是思想。
Audience: Why are these memories bundled together?
听众:为什么记忆捆绑在一起?
Krishnamurti: Through identification. I put everything in a bag, consciously or unconsciously.
克:通过认同。我有意或无意地把一切装到一个袋子里。
Comment from the Audience: So, there is a bag separate from memory.
听众评论:因此,有一个和记忆分开的袋子?
Krishnamurti: Memory is the bag.
克:记忆就是袋子。
Comment from the audience: Why do the memories stick together?
听众评论:为什么记忆捆绑在一起?
Krishnamurti: Because they are incomplete.
克:因为他们都还未结束。
Audience: But memories are non-existent, they are in a state of inertia, unless somebody is there to remember.
听众:但是记忆在现在并不呈现,他们处于不活动的状态,除非有人回忆起来。
Krishnamurti: In other words, is the rememberer different from memory? The rememberer and the memory are two sides of a coin. Without memory, there is no rememberer, and without the rememberer, there is no memory.
克:换句话说,回忆者和记忆有差别吗?回忆者和记忆是一个硬币的两个方面。没有记忆,就没有回忆者,没有回忆者,也没有记忆。
Audience: Why do we insist on separating the perceiver from the perception, the rememberer from the memory? Is this not at the root of our trouble?
听众:我们为什么要坚持把感受者和感受、回忆者和记忆分开呢?这不是我们的麻烦的根源?
Krishnamurti: We separate it because the rememberer, the experiencer, the thinker, becomes permanent by separation. Memories are obviously fleeting; so the rememberer, the experiencer, the mind, separates itself because it wants permanency. The mind that is making an effort, that is striving, that is choosing, that is disciplined, obviously cannot find the real; because, as we said, through that very effort it projects itself and sustains the thinker. Now, how to free the thinker from his thoughts? This is what we are discussing. Because, whatever he thinks must be the result of the past, and therefore he creates god, truth, out of memory, which is obviously not real. In other words, the mind is constantly moving from the known to the known. When memory functions, the mind can move only in the field of the known; and when it moves within the field of the known, it can never know the unknown. So, our problem is, how to free the mind from the known. To free ourselves from the known, any effort is detrimental, because effort is still of the known. So, all effort must cease. Have you ever tried to be without effort? If I understand that all effort is futile, that all effort is a further projection of the mind, of the "I", of the thinker, if I realize the truth of that, what happens? If I see very clearly the label "poison" on a bottle, I leave it alone. There is no effort not to be attracted to it. Similarly - and in this lies the greatest difficulty - , if I realize that any effort on my part is detrimental, if I see the truth of that, then I am free of effort. Any effort on our part is detrimental, but we are not sure, because we want a result, we want an achievement - and that is our difficulty. Therefore, we go on striving, striving, striving. But God, truth, is not a result, a reward, an end. Surely, it must come to us, we cannot go to it. If we make an effort to go to it, we are seeking a result, an achievement. But for truth to come, a man must be passively aware. Passive awareness is a state in which there is no effort; it is to be aware without judgment, without choice, not in some ultimate sense, but in every way; it is to be aware of your actions, of your thoughts, of your relative responses, without choice, without condemnation, without identifying or denying, so that the mind begins to understand every thought and every action without judgment. This evokes the question of whether there can be understanding without thought.
克:我们把他们分开是因为记忆者、经历者、思想者通过分别变成了恒常的了。记忆显然是稍纵即逝;因此记忆者、经历者、心意将自己分开,是因为他们想要成为恒常。心意作意的努力、渴求未知的事物、做出分别、约束自己,显然都不能发现真相;因为正如我们所说,通过作意,心意突出了自己,维持了思想。现在,如何将思想者从思想中摆脱出来?这是我们讨论的。因为不论他思想什么都是过去的结果,他从记忆中创造了上帝、实相,而这显然不是实相。换句话说,心意不断从已知到已知。当记忆发生作用的时候,心意只能在已知的领域中活动;而当心意在已知的领域中活动时,心意永远也不能认识未知。因此,我们的问题是,如何使心意从已知中解脱。为了使我们自己从已知中解脱,任何作意都是有害的,因为作意仍然是已知的。因此,所有作意必须停止。你是否尝试不作意?如果了解所有作意都是徒劳的,所有作意只是心意,或,或思想者的进一步凸显,如果意识到这是个事实,会发生什么呢?清楚地看到瓶子上的毒药标签,我不会碰它,不会被它吸引,这无需任何努力。类似地 最大的困难也在这里 -,如果我意识到任何作意都是有害的,如果我看到这个事实,那么我就无需任何作意。任何我自身的作意都是有害的,但是我们不确定,我们想要一个结果,我们想要有成就 这是我们的问题。因此,我们不断作意、作意、作意。但是,上帝、实相并不是结果,也不是回报或结果。当然,实相会出现,但是我们不知道通往实相的路。如果我们做出任何作意走进它,我们就是在寻求一个结果,一个成就。但是为了得到实相,人们必须被动地觉察。被动地觉察是一种无需作意的状态;不加入任何判断、选择,不仅仅有喜悦,而是无所不包;你需要觉察你的行动、你的思想、你的反应,不加选择、不加排斥、不认同或拒绝,这样心意才能理解每个念头,每个动作,不加判断。这就涉及了没有思想是否能够觉悟。
Audience: Surely, if you are indifferent to something.
听众:当然,如果你对某事物漠不关心。
Krishnamurti: Sir, indifference is a form of judgment. A dull mind, an indifferent mind, is not aware. To see without judgment, to know exactly what is happening, is awareness. So, it is vain to seek God or truth without being aware now, in the immediate present. It is much easier to go to a temple, but that is an escape into the realm of speculation. To understand reality, we must know it directly, and reality is obviously not of time and space; it is in the present, and the present is our own thought and action.
克:先生,漠不关心是一种判断。一种迟钝的心意,漠不关心的心意,不是觉察。不加判断,确切地知道发生的事情才是觉察。因此如果在现在,在当下没有觉察就无法见到上帝、实相。去寺院更容易,但是这只是逃避到臆测。为了见到实相,我们必须当下了了分明,实相与时间空间无关;实相就在当下,在我们的思想和行动的当下。
July 4, 1948
194874

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