文_潘青/2008.3《国家美术》NationalArts

潘：现在什么是艺术似乎成为艺术表达的核心，在你的作品中“什么是”到底是一种肯定的情绪还是表达等待表达的迷茫，或者只是一种情绪的不断宣泄，以至于不去寻找这些问题的答案？

周弘湘：我想从三方面来说。首先是渲染作品，其次是自我表达，最终是对艺术，对文化，对整个世界的提问。其实当代人不光是艺术家对于整个世界观都没有一个终极的答案，没有一个标准，你要是说单个人的答案是不完整的那么我们可以去寻求大众的答案，因为大部分人都赞同一个观点的时候，这个观点可以说是正确的至少它是合理的，但是你一旦把它放到一个大空间里去看，它到底是怎样的谁也不知道，迷茫感不光是艺术家会有，我认为这个社会里很多人都会有，不管你是干什么的，你会对你的行业迷茫，你会对这个环境迷茫，你会对生命本源迷茫。其实欧洲的评论家也在问我这是不是导演的困惑，我想它的确是困惑，我也不知道自己做的是不是正确的。在当代有可能你今天还红遍天，明天就是糟粕。你评价一个事物的成功，可以凭知识。但是艺术呢？我想很多人，当然他们是要在同一个认知程度上的，他们对艺术知识都不会差的哪里去。于是很多时候，说的人多了走过人多了大家也就明白了；其实艺术是个人和大众关系，个人认识和世界观的关系，想通了这个问题就能概括艺术界的问题了，也就能明白所谓的迷茫和困惑了。

潘：在你的作品中，从《红旗飘》到《玉米地》再到《中国人物画》《一阵风》，你给我的感觉是你没有什么文革情结，甚至没有任何一种宗教情结，那到底有没有你一直秉持的某种情结？

周弘湘:有，我从不回避任何方式，任何有倾向的情绪或者说是情结。一开始我并没有想到人会有什么样的观后反映。我作品的表达方式都是为影像服务的，做之前之后都没有想到它会有政治性或者其他什么。看了红旗飘这部片子后，第一个不认为它具有政治性的是杨福东，他并不认为这是一部有政治性的影片。其实我觉得不一定要用政治眼光去看待这个问题，但是作品一旦传播，它会成为一个靶子，致使很多人判断它有政治原因，后来我想通了，你要是一定说它有也就有吧，说没有也行。我总觉得有意思是最重要的，我希望它是有力量的如同翻江倒海的那种力量。说到这儿，如果所有的影片只有一种表达方式，就会变得单一，内容会变得单薄到了最后就没有超越的东西了。我认为只有超越才有意义，也只有超越才会产生新的电影语言，而不是因为简单的好看，悦目。所以电影语言或者是画面语言要有自己的风格，这好比就像爬山一样越到后面越难，语言也是，它必须要有新的趋向，再往上，这很难。

潘：从你的作品中我感觉到了压抑，它是来源于你的生存状态么？

周弘湘：这样说吧，六十年代的人的激情和追求和八十年代的人的追求是相差甚远的，八十年代的人更加注重于物质。五六十年代的人他们有一种治国平天下的热情，而以后的人是不一样的，热情的态度不一样，特别是八十年代的人，他们多半是一种无所谓的态度，因为有上一代的积累，特别是物质积累，让他们在大树底下好乘凉，他们更关注自己的快乐，更关注自身。当然他们可以放下历史包袱，这是时代的进步，这个时代更加人性化，因为世界归根结底是人的问题。《红旗飘》这部电影更想关注的是文革留下来的烙印。演员的狂热其实是人的狂热，这种狂热最后变成了符号，我用影像的方式表达出来。我想八十年代的人是不会做这样的片子了，他们完全可以过多元的生活。所以，在我的作品中感到压抑是一个时代的问题，它当然来源于生活状态，但这种状态似乎不是当下的。

潘：我之后又看了你的玉米地，觉得这部作品的思想不再那么尖锐，里面似乎有一种抒情的东西，在那个时间段你是怎样的一种生活状态？

周弘湘：做这部作品时我也没有特别想什么，我记得是04年暑假，回家看到田里的玉米地，家里人都在忙，你知道我是不会干农活的，但是总得干点什么吧。我正好拿着摄像机于是拍了，其实也就拍了两个下午，不带任何考虑，好像两盘带子都没有拍到一共只拍了六七十分钟。后来后就两盘带子一直放着，一直到06年初我重新清理硬盘的时候才拿出来剪了一下。你有没有发现这部片子的画面是处于禁止状态的，只有最后一个镜头是动态的。这也许就是表明了一种状态。

潘：那么为什么要取玉米地这个名字呢？

周弘湘：我在那片玉米地生长了二十年，其实这部作品就是概括一下自己的生活经历，片子里提到的地方自己都是去过的，人都是自己认识的。

潘：片子里不断有地名的变迁，时间的变迁但是最终却回到玉米地这个点，那么你是否想证明一种过程中的感觉，或者不是开头也不是结果只是过程的轮回？

周弘湘：对，不是为了交代一个结果，只是回忆一下过程，走了一圈后发现留在自己心里那么安静的地方依旧是玉米地，物质的概念在那个时候也变得那么平淡。我想这就是轮回，我父亲是九四年去世的，父亲去世12年了，姐姐，姐夫还有妈妈都在做一些我没有做到的事情。这些都是回忆，这里面的诗是我自己写的，都是真情实感。

潘：《中国人物画》这个互动作品中你究竟想表达点什么东西？

周弘湘：这个作品是我想把所见到中国每个时代做个记录，用最简单的一句话表达这些人的生存状态。我们做着自己不喜欢干的事情，还号称是最重要的事情，这是荒诞而滑稽的。里面有一个医生在打喷嚏，治病救人是医生的责任，但是自己却生病了他自己真能救治别人吗？当然了这只是我的个人情绪认识，事情都是有正反面的，当然就有很隐晦的定西存在，我只是不去回避这些负面，去记录他的正面以及反面。艺术圈里面很多人认为《中国人物画》是继《红旗飘》后最好的片子，所以意大利给我评了一个视觉艺术奖，不过它是由观众评选出来的。我认为要做电影就要做不一样的电影，作品出来以后，可以说是实验电影，是先锋电影，是概念电影，当然他也可以不叫做电影。就因为我想做与别人不一样的电影，所以经常处于一个真空状态，做出来的作品别人也不能定义。当我去柏林看超媒体展时，第一次见到那么多自己看不懂的东西，它使我兴奋，惶恐，我觉得我所有的美学知识都用不上了，于是我便把旧有的美学观都丢到垃圾桶里。当时有两个巴黎和洛杉矶的艺术家让我很感动，他们在技术上面做的很好，我觉得我拍的不如他们但是我之所以会得奖大概是我的思想比他们要强大吧。不过，人总不能停留在这里，我总希望走得前沿点。

潘：你的新作《一阵风》中的画面开始变得唯美，这样做力量感是否会减弱，就像红旗飘那种比较直接的力量？比如像贾樟柯从小武到三峡好人，它的画面也开始走向技术，你认为这是不是每一个电影人的必然？

周弘湘：其实这是一个普遍现象，我认为贾樟柯，王小帅都只有第一部作品拿得出来。但是大师不是只有第一部，他们还有最后一部。《一阵风》是我闲的时候一个想法，拍完之后我觉得，是要区分清到底是做导演还是想做摄影师的时候了。技术随着经验越加成熟，画面也就唯美了，但就怕画面唯美抢了导演的意识，当然画面也不能丢掉。怎么说呢，我认为在作品中新的语言，新的观念才是最重要的。

潘：《一阵风》里看到了一种用概念表达剧情的方式是不是里面的象征意味在加重？

周弘湘：这是一个老生常谈的问题。大家都知道象征的意义。苹果象征禁忌，以及血象征暴力，这是你们知道的。这部片子只是我做了个简单的唯美的尝试，我不想多说了，它不是我以后要走的路。

潘：我感觉你的情绪是隐藏在一种非常深刻的思考中而不是去纵容它的发泄，那么你认为你是一个思辨型的艺术家吗？

周弘湘：哈哈，我觉得我不是那种特有才华，特聪明的人。我也就是苦苦经营，苦苦想这事能不能成，能不能有突破。你知道感觉只是暂时的，创作要有新的思维并能够把它重新塑造，挖掘融合在一块儿。只靠灵感成功是短暂的，灵感总有一天会用完，能够走的远的人都是很理性的去思考问题。我是在用笨的方法去做东西，我觉得没有能力去思考只能是苦苦经营。

周弘湘，有着非常随和的性格，一个多小时的访谈里，风趣，淡定。这位因拍摄《红旗飘》而收到广泛注意的艺术家正努力突破已有的框架，实现着他的概念电影，祝他在自己的艺术道路上越走越远。

An Interview with Experimental Artist Zhou Hongxiang

By Pan Qing

The National Arts, Issue 2008. 3

Pan: What is art seems to be a core of artistic expression_r_r_r_r? In your work "what is" in the end is a positive expression_r_r_r_r of emotion? Or wait for the expression_r_r_r_r of confussion? ,or just a constant emotional outlet, to such an extent that it is even unnecessary to seek for answer?

Zhou Hongxiang: I would like to explain them from three aspects.. First of all, framing(?) works, then self-expression_r_r_r_r, questions towards art, culture, the whole world come the last because contemporary people including artists is unable to give an ultimate answer. There is no criteria to reference an answer, if an individual’s is incomplete, then we can go to seek answers to the general public because the majority agreement on certain question may be closest to the so-called correct, or at least reasonable. However, once such agreement is located in a bigger space, then everything changes. The uncertainty, the sense of lose exists on every single person.

Some critics from Europe asked me if it is a confusion of the director. I agree that I am confused to what I have done. I don’t have a clear answer. The fact of contemporary life is you may very popular today but become trash the next day. You may relay on knowledge to make a judgment on some things, how about art? How to judge art? Art is a relation between individual and mass people, knowledge and the philosophical opinion towards the world.

Pan: From The Red Flag Flies, Corn Land, to the Chinese Portraiture, a Gust of Wind,  unlike many artists, you don’t have much involvement with Cultural Revolution, although your work is considered very political.  What is your insistence?

Zhou Hongxiang: When I began in making the film, I did not pay much attention on receiving end, how audience would respond. Every skills/methods applied is to serve the image, the film. I did not think of the political meaning at all. The first person who did not think my film has any political meaning is Yang Fudong (film artist), which I agreed, people don’t have to watch my film through a lens of the political. But late on, how my film is received no longer bothers me. It’s all up to you. The most important thing to me is my film has to be powerful, containing tremendous power within it.  In terms of this, it would be super boring if all films have only one method of expression_r_r_r_r, representation. I believe only breakup with the old and exploring new languages of film are significant. Therefore the languages of film or image contain certain style, and this becomes increasingly difficult, like climbing a mountain, the higher the harder.

Pan: There is a sense of depression in you film, does this come from your life?

Zhou Hongxiang: Well, the passion and pursuit of those born 1960s are very different from that of 1980s, who is more materialized. People of my generation and the 50s still has a dream of contributing ourselves to the nation, the society. But the 80s no longer have such a dream, they concern more of themselves, their happiness, which is good that they are finally able to lay down the heavy burden of history. This is the progress of our era. Our society becomes more humanized. The question of the entire world is the question of human beings. The Red Flag Flies is more concerned of marks left-over from the Cultural Revolution. The fanatic of actors is the fanatic of human being, but I turned such fanatic into symbols represented by images. The generation of 1980s will not make such a piece of film, for they have a multi-life. The depression in my works is a problem of that era, which comes from life of that time, not contemporary. 

Pan: I have seen your Corn Land later, which seems more poetic, does this change has connections with your life at that period of time? 

Zhou Hongxiang: It was summer of 2004, I took around 60-70 minutes of raw material recording the corn land of my family, they were all busy in the corn land when I was home, I felt I’d better do something. Then two years later, in 2006 I discovered these raw materials in my computer, edited them. You may realize that images in the film are all static except the very last one. It reveals a kind of situation.

Pan: So why this name, Corn Land?

Zhou Hongxiang: I grownup from that corn land, I have lived there for 20 years. The film likes a summary of my life, every place and person in the film I know them exactly.

Pan: Why does the story eventually return to the corn land after changes of location, time? What do you want to say, a process? A circle?

Zhou Hongxiang: Yes, it does not mean to give a result, but to remember something, till the end what left in my heart is that quiet corn land. All desires vanished. My father died in 1994, twelve years ago. My sister, brother-in-law and mother are doing things I can never done. These are all memories, I wrote a poem in the film, those are all my true feelings. 

Pan: The Chinese Portraiture is an interactive piece, what did you want to way in this film?

Zhou Hongxiang: The work is a desire to give each period of time a profile, using the most laconic language to illustrate people of that era. We are doing what we do not like but still claiming they are important. It is ironic. For example, there is a doctor sneezing, how can a doctor help others while he himself is sick. Everything has double side, positive and negative, I don’t want to veil the negative. Somebody considers the Chinese Portraiture is the best one after the Red Flag Flies, which won a visual art award in Italian nominated purely by audiences. I always consider it is important to make a different film, no matter how it is called, experimental film? Conceptual film? Avant-garde film? Or it is not a film. The strong desire to make a different film turn me into a vacuum situation, the result of which is a film that can hardly be categorized. I was once in Berlin to see an ultra-media exhibition, the first time I encountered so many things I don’t understand, I was excited but also terrified. I suddenly felt that all my aesthetic knowledge were useless, so I throw them into the trash. There were two artists one from Paris, one from Los Angeles moved me a lot. They had definitely better technique, but I won the big prize. However, one can never stop there, I always hope to go forward.

Pan: A Gust of Wind seems very aesthetic, though?

Zhou Hongxiang: A Gust of Wind is a very leisure piece, when it’s complete, I was thinking whether I shall become a director or a photographer? With increasing experiences on filming, the images unavoidablly become more beautiful, but still, I believe the new language, new concept in the film is more significant.

Pan: A Gust of Wind employed concepts to narrate a story, what do you imply?

Zhou Hongxiang: It’s no more than a platitude. Everybody knows symbolism. Apply implies prohibition, blood implies violation, etc. This is what you know. I don’t want to say any more, for I will not go further on this direction.

Pan: How do you think of yourself?

Zhou Hongxiang: I work hard and hopefully will achieve something. To make a piece of work needs talent, but also the ability to manage, build up and cope with various things. Inspiration is ephemeral, a long career requires rational and practical persistence.