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正文 字体大小:

很有意思的两封信

(2009-09-29 10:28:58)
标签:

自由泳

蝶泳

ti

全浸

体育

分类: 游泳--象海豚一样自由

国外对TI的不同声音——两封信

原帖地址:http://bbs.chinaswim.com/viewthread.php?tid=204804&extra=page%3D1&page=1

很有意思的两封信 

很有意思的两封信

很有意思的两封信很有意思的两封信

很有意思的两封信

 

第一封信:

Dear Editor,

your recent article by Terry Laughlin, as well as books, videos and clinics, have been flooding the swimming and triathlon communities, promising to teach the secret to successful, fast swimming. These articles sound impressive, as they encourage us as swimmers to stop trying so hard and start feeling. But, as coaches, we are informed that we have been teaching and training swimmers incorrectly. We are told that to swim fast, our swimmers must learn to swim on their side like a fish, and must have and maintain a body position like a racing yacht.

Although some of these concepts have some merit and help beginner swimmers learn to relax in the water, they are not based on biomechanics, principles of propulsion or analyses of world-class swimmers. Since we are not built like fish and do not move through the water like a solid object, such as a racing hull, it is foolish to base stroke instruction and an entire training philosophy around these principles.

It has been stated by the guru of "fishlike" swimming, "the most hydrodynamically perfect position that your body can be in is balanced, lying on your side, one arm extended for length - not so very different from the way fish do it."

This statement drives me nuts! Fish do not swim on their side. [Nor do they have arms.] If we take a look at a fish, we notice a large fin sticking up toward the surface of the water. This fin is called the dorsal fin. Dorsal means "back" or "upper surface".

The dorsal fin is on the fish's back, which means its back is up, and its front is down toward the bottom of its pond. The fish, it seems, swims on its stomach--not on its side. If you happen to see a fish swimming on its side, you know that fish is dead in the water, the same way you'll be if you spend too much time trying to swim on your side.

Have you ever seen an article in Runner's World, "Run Like a Cheetah...on all Fours"? Can you imagine the breakthrough this type of discovery would mean to the running world? We can learn a great deal from the observation of animals in their natural environments, but we should never forget we are not those animals.

Bob Patten
Head Coach
Dallas Area Masters (DAM)

翻译:cycle

 亲爱的编辑
  最近您刊登的Terry Laughlin的文章,以及他的书籍,视频和现场教学,充斥了游泳和铁人三项社群,
承诺可以教授成功快速的游泳秘诀。这些文章看起来给人很深的印象,因为它们鼓励我们游泳者停止艰苦
努力尝试并且开始试着感觉。但是作为教练,这些告诉我们一直在错误地教导和训练游泳者。它们告诉我
们要想游得快,游泳者就应该学习像鱼一样侧身游,并且同时保持像赛艇一样的身体位置。

尽管这些内容有些优点并且帮助了初学者在水中学会放松,但是这些不是基于生物力学,推进力原理,或
者对世界级游泳者的分析。因为我们身体构造不像鱼并且也不像固定形状的物体一样在水中前进,比如赛
船,所以基于那些原则来教导划水甚至确立整个训练体系都是愚蠢的。

这一切起源于‘类似鱼的’游泳指导。“最符合流体力学的身体姿态是保持平衡,侧躺,一只手臂尽可能前
伸-和鱼的做法没什么区别。"

这种说法真让我发疯。鱼不是侧着身游得(它们也没有胳膊)。如果你看一下鱼,我们可以注意到一个大
的冲着水面的鳍。这个鳍叫做背鳍。背的意思是‘后背’或者“上面”。

背鳍在鱼的后背上,也就是说它的背是冲上面的。所以他的正面就是在下面冲着池底的。看起来鱼是趴着
游得而不是侧身游。如果你看见一条鱼侧身游,你就该知道那条鱼已经死了。如果你试着侧身游太多也是
同样的结果。

你看过在径赛界有文章说“像一只豹一样跑。。。用四肢”?你能想象这样一种发现对径赛意味着什么样的
突破吗?我们可以从在自然界观察动物学到很多,但是不能忘记我们不是那些动物。

Bob Patten
总教练
Dallas Area Masters (DAM)

第二封信:

Dear Editor,

several months ago in an article I wrote for Swimming World ("The New Australian Crawl"), I mentioned that the common expression_r_r_r "swim like a fish" was a rather silly concept. I stated my reasons for that opinion and never gave a thought to the likelihood that I might have offended anyone.

However, I received five very scathing faxes from people in the "Total Immersion" Incorporated Swim Clinic business, who apparently thought that this comment was a direct insult to them and the business, in which they use the phrases "swim like a fish" and "fishlike swimming."

The truth of the matter is that Mr. Laughlin is not the first one to observe fish swimming and wonder how the inexplicable grace and speed of fish might somehow be learned or transferred to human propulsion in the water. My coach, Dr. James Counsilman, had several aquariums in his house, and we spent a great deal of time in the 1940s and 1950s discussing fishlike movements, especially their ability to accelerate from a dead stop to full speed in virtually the blink of an eye, as well as the phenomenal speed that sea creatures can generate in open water.

I have spent time over several decades, as most swim coaches probably have, observing the propulsive movements of fish. My opinion is that one will learn more about fast swimming in a single session of observing the races of champions such as Inge De Bruijn, Ian Thorpe, Mike Barrowman, Pieter van den Hoogenband, Lenny Krayzelburg, Janet Evans, Lars Frolander, Yana Klochkova, Michael Klim, Kieren Perkins and all the others too numerous to name, than in a lifetime of observing fish.

One item that is totally missing from the TI formula for success is fast training. One thing I can tell you for certain is that anyone who tries to convince you that a few adjustments in balance and position in the water will immediately turn you into a champ is a charlatan. Although these factors are very important, one must train progressively faster and with unrelenting dedication, or be born with awesome natural talent, to become great in this sport.
There are [so] many different roads to success in swimming that it is extremely presumptuous to claim that one, alone, has the magic key to success. Both in terms of training programs and in the so-called "ideal form," there are no such things.

We all try to contribute a little more knowledge to this sport that we love. Anyone who tries to take the arrogant pose that he knows it all, that he has all the answers, is pulling a big con game.

We do not swim like fishes. We do not swim on our sides. One only has to look carefully at the greatest freestylers and backstrokers at the 2000 Olympic Games to see that the upper torso and shoulders stay relatively flat and stable in relationship to the surface of the water. The arms are extended and the shoulders are shifted forward (not downward). The torque or rotation in these strokes occurs in the lower torso, hips and legs. [Note: If you analyse videoclips you come to a different conclusion].

I do not know of a single species of fish that swims in that manner. One only has to look at Inge De Bruijn and observe the fantastically efficient stroke she has developed with her super coaches, Paul Bergen and Jacco Verhaeren. De Bruijn's 24.13 in the 50 meter freestyle (swum in the semifinal heats) may have been the single greatest breakthrough in the entire Olympic Games of 2000. She swam that race with a straight arm recovery and almost flat upper body, much as Janet Evans did during her heyday.

To create torque in a long axis stroke (freestyle and backstroke), one must have a semi-fixed point from which to work. The rotation of the lower extremities of the torso, hips and legs against the relatively stable shoulder girdle and upper torso allows one to create power, or torque, in the strokeIf the entire body rotates along the central axis, little or no torque - or power - occurs, and a great deal of the strength and force of the long axis strokes is dissipated. Rotation and the concomitant torque generated in all power movements in sport occur against a fixed or semi-fixed fulcrum.

That is why golfers and baseball players use spikes to completely stabilize their feet so that great momentum can be generated in the swing. If their feet slip during the swing, it greatly diminishes their ability to hit the ball with any real power.

A similar principle occurs in swimming. However, our semi-fixed body part for the generation of power, or torque, in the stroke is the stable shoulder girdle. If one drops the shoulder and rolls to swim on his side, the power is lost.

The contemporary world-class freestylers and backstrokers, of course, elevate the shoulders on the recovery phase of the stroke, which gives the illusion of rolling. However, when viewed from underwater or above water from the front, during the propulsive phase of the stroke, there is very little change in the depth of the shoulders. The shoulders remain high throughout the pull. Great freestylers and backstrokers swim with very little central axis rotation within the upper body during the propulsive phase of the stroke.

Also, a much narrower frontal profile can be created by shifting the shoulder forward. Great swimmers obviously have many differences in their strokes. However, they do not swim on their sides in what has been described as fishlike swimming.

As a final point, I am happy for everyone at TI for the business success you have enjoyed. With the organizational skill you have generated, you are in a position to continue to make an impact on our sport. However, make room for other people's ideas and observations. You will be stronger for it.

You think humans swim like fish? There are a lot of people who do not. What's the big deal? I suggest you spend more time watching swimmers underwater and less time watching fish.

Ron Johnson
Head Coach
Sun Devils Masters
[Ex Olympic coach, 31 finalists, 14 medal winners]

 

翻译:cycle

亲爱的编辑,

几个月前在一篇我写给“游泳世界”的文章(题目为“新式澳大利亚爬泳”)里面,我提到了“像鱼一样游泳”这样的说法是个很愚蠢的想法。我陈述了这种想法的原因但是从没想过这可能会惹恼任何人。

但是,我从从事“全浸自由泳”教学的游泳机构收到了五封严厉的传真。他们显然认为我的话是对他们及他们生意(在这里他们用了“像鱼一样游泳”的说法)的直接侮辱。

事情的真相是 Mr. Laughlin 不是第一个观察鱼的,也不是第一个考虑如何才能学习难以言喻的鱼所具有的速度和优雅泳姿并且转化成人在水中前进动力的人。 我的教练, Dr. James Counsilman,家里有好几个鱼缸。在二十世纪40-50年代我们花了很长时间讨论鱼的运动,尤其是他们从完全停止到全速前进只需要一眨眼时间的加速能力和海洋生物在自然水域里的令人瞩目的速度。

在过去的几十年里,像大部分游泳教练一样,我花了很多时间观察鱼在水里的前进。我的想法是你从一次对游泳冠军比赛的观察中学到的快速游泳的技术多于用一辈子的时间来观察鱼。这些冠军包括 Inge De Bruijn, Ian Thorpe, Mike Barrowman, Pieter van den Hoogenband, Lenny Krayzelburg, Janet Evans, Lars Frolander, Yana Klochkova, Michael Klim, Kieren Perkins和其他一些多得无法计数的人。

速度训练是全浸完全缺少的。有一件确定的事情是任何试图让你相信一些对水中平衡和位置的调整可能让你变成冠军的人都是吹牛的人。尽管这些因素很重要,但是一个人必须逐步在训练中加速,并且要有着近似残酷的投入或者很棒的天赋,才能在这项运动中胜出。游泳有很多路都可以成功。声称仅仅某种方法掌握了成功的钥匙是很冒失的,不管从训练角度还是从所谓的“完美身体姿态”的角度。没有这样的东西。

我们试图为我们所热爱的体育多贡献一点点知识。任何试图表现一种“他全都懂,他有所有问题的答案”的傲慢态度的人都是在摆一个大骗局。

我们不像鱼一样游泳。我们不是侧身游泳。你只要仔细看看2000奥运会上最好的自由泳和仰泳选手,就会发现上躯干和肩带相对于水面基本是平的稳定的。胳膊向前伸并且肩膀向前移(不是向下移)。这些泳姿中的扭矩或者转动发生在躯干下部,臀部和腿部。(注意,如果你分析视频你会得到不同的结论)

我不知道有任何一种鱼是那么游泳的。你只要看一下 Inge De Bruijn 和她的教练Paul Bergen and Jacco Verhaeren发展的不可思议的有效划水。她在50米自由泳的24.13的成绩(半决赛)可能是2000年奥运会的最大突破。她那场比赛采用了直臂移臂和上身水平,和  Janet Evans 在全盛时期差不多。

在长轴游泳(自由泳和仰泳)中要产生扭矩,必须要有一个半固定的支点。躯干下部,臀部和腿相对于基本平稳的肩膀和躯干上部的转动,可以在游泳中产生力量,或者说扭矩。如果整个身体围绕中心轴转动,会产生很小的扭矩或者力量并且大量划水的力量都被浪费了。在所有的体育运动中产生的转动和伴随产生的扭矩都出现在有一个固定得或者半固定的支点的时候。

这就是为什么高尔夫球手和垒球球手用钉子来完全固定住他们的脚,以便于在挥动中产生最大的动量。如果鞋底打滑,无论多大的力气击球能力都会大大降低。

同样的原理也适用于游泳。但是,我们用来产生力量(或者说扭矩)的半固定的身体部分是稳定的肩带。如果降低肩膀侧身游,力量就失去了。

现今世界级的自由泳和仰泳选手,当然在移臂的时候会抬高肩膀,给了一种转动的假象。但是如果从水下或者在水上从前面看过去,在推进阶段,肩的深度基本没有变化。在整个推水的过程中肩都是高的。高水平自由泳和仰泳选手在推进的阶段围绕躯干上部中心轴基本不转动。

同时,向前送肩可以产生更窄的向前的对水面。优秀游泳者显然游法各有不同。但是他们不会像“鱼式游泳”那样侧身游。

最后,我为在全浸行业取得商业成功的人感到高兴。你们拥有组织能力使得你们可以对游泳继续产生影响。但是,要给别人的想法留下空间。这会让你们变得更强。

你认为人类像鱼一样游泳?有很多人不是。这又有什么大不了的?我建议你们多花时间观察一下水下的游泳者少花点时间观察鱼。

Ron Johnson
总教练
Sun Devils Masters
[前奥林匹克教练, 31 决赛选手, 14 奖牌选手]

 

我在google搜索到的Johnson 教练的资料:

http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/c-swim/spec-rel/081209aaa.html

很有意思的两封信

(可惜,他已经去世了)

Services Set for Former Swimming Coach Ron Johnson

Johnson served as ASU's head men's swimming coach for 18 years.

 

 

很有意思的两封信 ASU Hall of Fame Coach Ron Johnson passed away last weekend.
 
ASU Hall of Fame Coach Ron Johnson passed away last weekend.
 

Aug. 12, 2009

 

A celebration of life for Ron Johnson, former Arizona State University head swimming coach, has been set for 9 a.m., Saturday, August 15 at the Ventana Room, located on the second floor of ASU's Memorial Union. The following day, a swimming workout held in Johnson's memory will be held from 9 a.m. to noon at the Mona Plummer Aquatic Center, attendees can share any stories or memories of Johnson.

Johnson, who passed away last weekend, served as ASU's men's swimming head coach for 18 years (1976-1993) and earned a winning record of 114-50. Within two years as head coach, the Sun Devils cracked the top-20 nationally and had its first All-American, Blake Johnson, who placed third at the 1977 NCAA Championships in the 400 IM.

The men's program finished in the top 10 six times under Johnson. The team reached a school-high sixth place finish in 1982 and the following year Johnson was named Pac-10 Coach of the Year. He additionally served as the women's co-coach with Mona Plummer when the 1977 and 1978 women's team won the AIAW national titles. Both he and Plummer were named Co-Coach of the Year in 1978-79 by the National Women's Swimming Coaches Association.

Johnson's Sun Devil athletes earned over 100 All-American honors. He helped lead Andy Astbury to the 500 freestyle NCAA individual title in 1982. Johnson coached another NCAA individual champion a year later as Mike Orn took the 200 free title.

As the director of the Mexican National competitive swimming program, Johnson served as Mexico's head coach for the 1968 and 1972 Olympic Games. Johnson's swimmers found success at the Summer Olympic Games as 27 of his former Sun Devil athletes have been Olympic finalists and 14 of those have left the Olympics with a medal.

In 2007, Johnson was inducted into both the ASU Sports Hall of Fame and into the Masters Swimming Hall of Fame. As a Masters swimmer, he broke over 50 world records.

 

我的观点:

如果没有大量基本功的训练,想要游好,尤其是蝶泳,想都不要想。

任何事情只要进入了商业运作模式,自然会利用很多吸引眼球的好彩头,让泳者以为不用付出很多努力就会游得象鱼一样。侧身减少阻力的同时,也减少了推进力,二者的效果是同时存在的,过分强调侧身,必然增加了滑行的距离,推进力势必减少。

天下没有免费的午餐。

 

我以前写的:

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4bcfdfea010091dc.html

 

 

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