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Interview: Three colors triology

(2007-09-05 13:27:17)
标签:

知识/探索

 
Q: Why were you interested in the French motto: Liberty, equality, fraternity?
問:自由、平等、博愛,為何法國的建國宣言會成為您靈感緣起?Interview: <wbr>Three <wbr>colors <wbr>triology
KK: Precisely for the same reason that I was interested in "Decalogue." In ten phrases, the ten commandments express the essential of life. And these three words -- liberty, equality, and fraternity -- do just as much. Millions of people have died for those ideals. We decided to see how these ideals are realized practically and what they mean today.
答:這也正是為何【十誡】能緣出我靈感的理由一樣。十句話之內,【十誡】表達了生活中最精粹的元素。而這三個概念,也有同樣精闢的效果。多少人為了這樣理想的境界犧牲了性命在所不惜。我們的團隊嘗試著把這些理想描入現實生活之中,並探索今時今日它們的意義何在。
Q: So what interests you is life. Is this why you left your first job as a designer to go to school in Lodz and specialize in documentaries?
問:那可以說真正啟發靈感的是生命本身。這也是您離開原本設計師工作,重回洛茲學院選修紀錄片專業的主因嗎?
KK: I wanted to describe the world at the same time, through image, express what I felt. It was the time of the great documentary filmmakers: Richard Leacock, Joris Ivens. Today, television has put an end to this type of filmmaking. The television industry doesn't like to see the compexity of the world. It prefers simple reporting, with simple ideas: this is white, that's black; this is good, that's bad...
答:我想要用影像來形容這個世界,表達我的感受。那是一個紀錄片巨人誕生的年代,理查德.黎洛克、尤瑞斯.艾凡斯等。今天電視扼殺了當年的電影形態,電視平台拒絕承受世界的複雜性,它只要簡單的報導,簡單的想法:黑就是黑,白就是白;好就是好,壞就是壞…
Q: How did you conceive the films in relation to each other?
註:
Richard Leacock
Joris Ivens.
問:您是怎樣發展這三個概念彼此之間的關係?
KK: We looked very closely at the three ideas, how they functioned in everyday life, but from an individual's point of view. These ideas are contradictory with human nature. When you deal with them practically, you do not know how to live with them. Do people really want liberty, equality, fraternity? Is it not some manner of speaking? We always take the individual, personal point of view.
答:我們用最貼近生活的視角來觀察個三個概念,觀察它們怎樣再日常生活中運作呼吸,不過所有的觀察都是從個人的視角。這些概念,都與人性相悖,每當你要實現它們時,就會發覺無從著手。人們真的期待自由、平等、與博愛嗎?難道它們不都是一種說法罷了?我們總是從最個人的觀點出發。
Q: So you turned to fiction -- yet you stick very close to real life.
問:所以您轉向非紀實的劇情片的敘事—不過,與生活的距離還是很近。
KK: I think life is more intelligent than literature. And working so long in documentaries became both a blessing and an obstacle in my work. In a documentary, the script is just to point you in a certain direction. One never knows how a story is going to unfold. And during the shoot, the point is to get as much material as possible. It's in the editing that a documentary takes place. Today, I think I still work in the same way. What I shoot isn't really the story -- the footage just contains the elements that will make up the story. While shooting, details which weren't in the script are often thrown in. And during the editing process a lot is cut out.
答:我覺得生命要比文學高明得多。我長期累積的紀錄片工作經驗是我的靈藥,卻也是一種障礙。對紀錄片而言,劇本只是給你一個方向,沒有人知道最後故事會活出怎樣的靈魂。而在拍攝過程中,最重要的莫過於採集大量的素材,紀錄片的創作是在剪接室發生的。現在的我,工作方式大同小異—我拍攝的總不是故事的本身—素材只是傳送故事的媒介。劇本裡不存在的細節總是會被丟進拍攝現場,而剪接時,許多又都又給剔除出局。
Q: If you took this way of thinking far enough, don't you think you might end up using scripts merely as pretexts?
問:那麼如果把這樣的思路延伸到頭,劇本相對於電影本身不是淪落為僅僅是一個拍攝的藉口?
KK: No, not at all. Absolutely not. For me the script is key because it's the means to communicating with the people I work with. It may be the skeleton, but it is the indispensable foundation. Later, many things can be changed: Certain ideas may be eliminated, the end may become the beginning, but what's between the lines, all the ideas -- that stays the same.
答:不,一點也不會,也絕對不是這樣。因為對我而言,劇本是與劇組溝通的樞紐,它可能是一個骨架,卻是一個不可或缺的基準。基準之上,許多變化會發生,甚至很多想法會被取消,或許故事的結尾會成為故事的起點,可是字裡行間的主題,它不會改變。
Q: You call yourself an artisan, as opposed to an artist. Why?
問:您謙稱自己為一名工匠,將自己與藝術家做了一個區分,為什麼?
KK: Real artists find answers. The knowledge of the artisan is within the confines of his skills. For example, I know a lot about lenses, about the editing room. I know what the different buttons on the camera are for. I know more or less how to use a microphone. I know all that, but that's not real knowledge. Real knowledge is knowing how to live, why we live... things like that.
答:真正的藝術家找到的是答案。工匠的知識受限於它的技藝,舉例來說:我懂得善用鏡頭,我也有豐富的剪接技巧,我知道攝影機上每個機關的作用,我甚至懂點錄音,這些我都知道,可是這些都不是真正的知識,也不是解答。真正的知識,是懂得怎樣生活,為何而活…那一種層次的東西。
Q: Did you shoot the films separately, with an interval between them?
問:您三部片子是分開完成的嗎?中間有間歇嗎?
KK: We started with "Blue" and shot from September to November 1992. On the last day, we started "White" because in the courtroom scene, you see the characters from both films together. As it is very difficult to shoot in a courtroom in Paris, since we had the permit, we took advantage of it; we immediately shot about 30% of "White" because the first part takes place in Paris. Then we left for Poland to finish it. After ten days of rest, we went to Geneva to start "Red" which was shot in Switzerland from March to May 1993.
答:我門是在1992年十一月開始拍【藍】的,最後一天【白】就開機了,主要是為了法院那場戲。就是兩片主角卡在同時間同空間的那場。在巴黎租借法院一事非常難搞,我們已經有【藍】的拍攝准許證,所以我們得好好利用。【藍】殺青後我們馬上就拍攝了百分之三十的【白】,因為背景都還在巴黎。然後我們轉場到波蘭繼續拍攝,休息十天後,我們隨即倒日內瓦拍【紅】。算算【紅】的拍攝期是從1993年三月到五月。
Q: Was the screenplay of the three films fully written?
問:三部片子的劇本都在拍攝前完成了嗎?
KK: It was completed well before the first day of shooting, six months before. You cannot forget the scouting for locations which takes time. You have to think in terms of 100 sequences, three countries and three different directors of photography. You have to organize and prepare in order to arrive at what was agreed with the producer.
答:早在開拍前六個月就正是完成了。別小看這個找景過程可是相當費時,腦子裡同時要跑100個橋段,考慮三個國家,與三名不同的攝影師合作溝通。所有的計畫與準備都要達到與製作人協調同意的標準。
Q: Did you have the same crew on all three films?
問:這三部片子所用的劇組人員有換過嗎?
KK: The directors of photography were different: Slawomir Idziak for "Blue," Edward Kojinski for "White" (he worked several times with Andrzej Wajda) and Piotr Sobocinski, who is young but very talented, for "Red." The others, for sound, set design, and music are the same. It worked well for "The Decalogue" so we kept the same principle.
答:攝影師都不一樣:斯羅米耶.依茲牙克為【藍】掌鏡;艾德華.瓦耶達的搭檔--寇因斯基拍得是【白】;年輕有為的皮埃歐特.索博辛斯基完成了【紅】。其他的組員,錄音、美術、與音樂都是原班人馬。【十誡】時我就是這樣做,成果我很滿意,所以就一路合作下來。
Q: Did you start editing before having completed shooting three films?
問:您在三部片子殺青前就開始剪接了嗎?
KK: Yes, I was editing during the shooting from the first week. I even edited during the breaks.
答:恩,從開拍第一個星期我就開始剪接了,連休假日我也在剪接。
Q: The more concrete and tangible your films are, the more metaphysical they seem to become. You take more and more close-ups, you're ever nearer to the characters and objects: you seem to be searching for something beyond the concrete or the physical.
問:似乎儘管您電影愈求寫實具象,所表達的訊息卻愈發形而上。越來越多的特寫鏡頭,似乎要穿透既存在的角色或是形體:在現實與形式之外,你在尋找什麼?
KK: Of course I'd like to get beyond the concrete. But it's really difficult. Very difficult.
答:我當然希望能夠抓住實體之外的訊息,不過這很難。這太難。
Q: What is it you're trying to capture?
問:您想抓住的是什麼?
KK: Perhaps the soul. In any case, a truth which I myself haven't found. Maybe time that flees and can never be caught.
答:或許是靈魂吧。不論是什麼,總之我個人是沒有找到過,溜掉了的時間,就再也抓不回來了。
Q: Do the names of the characters have a particular meaning?
問:角色的名字有何特殊意義嗎?
KK: I tried to think of names which would be both easy for the audience to remember and reflective of the character's personalities. In real life, there are names that surprise us because they don't seem to suit the person at all.
答:我在想名字的時候總是找觀眾好記的,適合角色性格的。現實生活中,有時候名字與人不搭調時,會讓人感覺很扎。
Q: For "The Double Life Of Veronique" -- did you have Veronique from the Gospel in mind?
問:在【兩生花】裡,給弗朗妮卡取名字時,你是想到了聖經裡的弗朗妮卡嗎?
KK: Later on I did, but not when I chose the name, and although it had been unconscious, it seemed like a good association to have made. For "Red," I asked Irene Jacob what her favorite name was as a little girl. At the time, it was "Valentine." So, I named her character Valentine. For "White," I named the hero Karol (Charlie in Polish) as a tribute to Chaplin. This little man, who is both naive and shrewd, has a("chaplinesque" side to him.
答:取名字的時候沒多想,取完了我才想到這個關連;儘管是下意識的選擇,我倒是很喜歡這個暗示。在給【紅】的角色取名時,問過艾林.雅各她小時候最喜歡的名字是什麼,她說是范倫亭(情人節;羅馬聖人),我就將女主角取名范倫亭。在【白】中我的男主角叫做卡羅【波蘭語卡羅就是查理】,這是為了紀念查理.卓別林。那個小男人,既土氣又精明,很有一種卓別林的味道。
Q: "The Decalogue" was full of chance meetings -- some of them failures and some successful. And in "Three Colors", from one film to another, people seem to run into each other.
問:在【十誡】中充滿了各式各樣的偶遇,有些結果是失敗的,有些是成功的。在【三部曲:紅白藍】中也穿插了主角們彼此的偶遇。
KK: I like chance meetings - life is full of them. Everyday, without realizing it, I pass people whom I should know. At this moment, in this cafe, we're sitting next to strangers. Everyone will get up, leave, and go on their own way. And they'll never meet again. And if they do, they won't realize that it's not for the first time.
In the trilogy, these encounters have less importance than in "A Short Film About Killing" in which the fact that the future killer and the lawyer fail to meet each other is key. In the trilogy, they're included mainly for the pleasure of some cinephiles who like to find points of reference from one film to another. It's like a game for them.
答:我喜歡偶遇,人生其實充滿了偶遇。每一天,不經意的,我與我該認識的人擦肩而過。在這個時刻,在這間咖啡館,我們就坐在陌生人身邊;每個人都會起身、離開、走各自該走的路。他們再也不會見面,就算他們再見了,也沒有人會記得:這已經不是第一次了。
在三部曲中,這些偶遇設計的很輕,完全沒有【關於殺人】(十誡之一)裡未來的殺手因為錯過了與律師的偶遇而造成了全片的骨牌效應。在三部曲中,這些偶遇不過是滿足影癡們喜歡在片中追尋主角的快感,這不過是設計場遊戲而已。
Q: Each film has a scene with an elderly person trying to put the bottle in the trash can. What does this mean?
問:三部曲中每一部都有一老者試著要把寶特瓶丟到回收筒裡的鏡頭,這在暗示什麼?
KK: I merely thought that old age awaits all of us and that one day we won't have enough strength left to put a bottle in a container. In "Blue," to avoid having this scene seem moralistic, I over-exposed the image. I figured that this way Julie doesn't see the woman, and doesn't realize what lies ahead for herself. She's too young. She doesn't know that one day she's going to need someone's help. In "White" Karol smiles( because he realizes this is the one person worse off than he is. In "Red" we see something about Valentine's compassion.
答:我想到的只是老這個階段都在不遠處等著我們,有一天我們都將感受到連把一個瓶子裝到一個容器裡的力量都沒有。在【藍】裡面,我不希望這場戲把道德氣氛搞得凝重,所以選擇畫面過度曝光,我想這樣朱琍就錯過這一幕了,也不會警覺到自己會老去。她太年輕了,她不知道有一天她也會需要人照顧。在【白】裡,卡羅看著這一幕笑了,因為他看到了還有人比他慘。在【紅】裡,這一幕則顯出了范倫亭的惻隱之心。
Q: Valentine knows the price of fraternity and Julie will learn to love again. The same can be said for Karol and Dominique. Even when you're talking about liberty and fraternity, love is the final word.
問:范倫亭知道博愛的代價,朱琍學會了重新去愛,當然,卡羅與當摩妮克也一樣。就連您在探討自由與博愛時,愛總是結論。
KK: To tell you the truth, in my work, love is always in opposition to the elements. It creates dilemmas. It brings in suffering. We can't live with it, and we can't live without it. You'll rarely find a happy ending in my work.
答:老實說,在我的作品裡,愛總是一切元素的對照,愛讓一切陷入窘境,愛讓人受苦;我們不能沒有也無法擁有「愛」。想在我作品裡找到圓滿結局,很難。
Q: Yet the screenplay for "Red" seems to say that you believe in fraternity. And the end of "Blue" is optimistic since Julie is able to cry.
問:不過【紅】的劇情似乎暗示了你對博愛的認同, 【藍】的結局也挺積極的,因為朱琍終於可以哭了。
KK: You think so? For me optimism is two lovers walking into the sunset arm in arm. Or maybe into the sunrise -- whatever appeals to you. But if you find "Blue" optimistic, then why not? Paradoxically, I think the real happy ending is in "White" which is, nevertheless, a black comedy.
答:你覺得是這樣的嗎?對我來說樂觀的結局是一對情侶手攜手走向夕陽;旭日也不錯—見仁見智吧。不過你要是覺得【藍】就夠樂觀了,也行啊!反過來說,我到覺得那【白】才是最圓滿的結局,至少他是個黑色喜劇。
Q: A man who goes to visit his wife in prison. You call that a happy ending?
問:一個男人到監獄裡去找他的老婆,那算是圓滿結局?
KK: But they love each other! Would you rather have the story finish with him in Warsaw and her in Paris - with both of them free but not in love?
答:至少他們相愛啊!你會更希望見他們兩人一個在華沙一個在巴黎呢?還是兩人都自由自在就是不相愛?
Q: The theme of equality is not, at first glance, very obvious in "White."
問:我覺得在【白】劇中,平等這個主題並不是很明顯。
KK: It can be found in different areas: between husband and wife, at the level of ambitions and in the realm of finance. "White" is more about inequality than equality.
In Poland we say "Everyone wants to be more equal than everyone else." It's practically a proverb. And it shows that equality is impossible: it's contradictory to human nature. Hence, the failure of Communism. But it's a pretty word and every effort must be made to help bring equality about... keeping in mind that we won't achieve it -- fortunately. Because genuine equality leads to set-ups like concentration camps.
答:在丈夫與老婆之間,兩人野心的程度與經濟能力的範疇裡,很多地方都在挑戰這個主題啊!當然【白】說得主要是“不“平等。
在波蘭我們說:「每個人都想比別人更加平等一點。」這已然是一句格言;它也說明了平等是不可能的;它與人性是誓不兩立的。這也就是為什麼共產主義會失敗。平等是一個漂亮的字眼,也值得我們為達到這個標準付出一切努力…可是,可喜可賀,你該看破,這是一個我們永遠達不到的標準。因為追求最純粹的平等境地會把我們一步步領向集中營生活。
Q: You've lived in France for a year now. Has the experience modified your notion of liberty -- hence the tenor of "Blue?"
問:您在法國也住了一年了,這一年的生活經驗是否調整了您對自由的意識,換言之,對於【藍】的認知?
KK: No, because this film, like the other two, has nothing to do with politics. I'm talking about interior liberty. If I had wanted to talk about exterior liberty -- liberty of movement -- I would have chosen Poland. Since things obviously haven't changed there. Let's take some stupid examples. With your passport, you can go to America. I can't. With a French salary you can buy a plane ticket to Poland, but this would be( impossible vice-versa. But interior liberty is universal.
答:不。因為這部電影,就像其它兩部,沒有任何政治因素介入。我所談得自由,是內在的自由,如果我選擇從外在的自由切入—自由的行為運動—我就會把背景放在波蘭。因為波蘭的一切,至今明顯沒有任何改變。讓我藉你的護照舉個蠢例。你的護照可以讓你自由入境美國,我的不行。你在法國拿到支薪,可以買張票就飛到波蘭去,可是反過來就行不通了。可是內在的自由是沒有這種界限的。
Q: "Blue" seems like a continuation of "The Double Life of Veronique," which itself picks up on an element from "Decalogue 9" (the cardiac singer). We could go on and on... Each film seems to give you a rough outline for another film.
問:【藍】這個故事似乎是【兩生花】的延續,而這故事形體上又已經是從【十誡之九】中取材。這種現象可以無限想像下去,似乎每一個電影都成為另一部電影的雛形。
KK: Of course, because I'm always shooting the same film! There's nothing original in that though. All filmmakers do the same, and authors are always writing the same book. I'm not talking about "professionals," I mean authors. Careful, I said authors, not artists.
答:當然。因為我永遠在拍同一種電影!不過這也不是什麼新論述。所有的電影人都是這樣的,作者亦然。我說的可不是「專家」,我說的是作者。留神,作者,不是藝術家。
Q: Each color is shot in a different country. Was this out of duty to the European film industry?
問:每個顏色的故事都在一個不同的國家拍攝,這樣的設計是為【歐洲電影市場】盡義務嗎?
KK: The idea of a European film industry is completely artificial. There are good and bad films: that's it. Take "Red" -- we filmed in Switzerland for economic reasons -- Switzerland is co-producing. But it's not only that. We started thinking... Where would a story like "Red" take place? We thought of England, then Italy. Then we decided that Switzerland was perfect, mainly because it's a country that wants to stay a bit off-center. The proof is the referendum concerning its connection to Europe. Switzerland leans towards isolation. It's an island in the middle of Europe. And "Red" is a story of isolation.
答:所謂的【歐洲電影市場】是一個虛概念。電影,從來只有好電影與壞電影的分別。說【紅】好了,【紅】在瑞士拍是經濟上的考量,瑞士是聯合製片方。我們為【紅】想過許多拍攝地點的可能性,想過英國,也想過義大利。最後我們覺得瑞士挺完美的,因為瑞士這個國家本性愛偏閃不興成為聚焦點。瑞士的公民權(不過三代出生於瑞士不算瑞士公民)就是最好的證明。瑞士傾向獨立,是歐洲中土的一個島,而【紅】這個故事說得就是孤立獨活。
註:
Swiss Referendum
Q: Is it difficult to shoot in France without speaking the language?
問:在法國拍片卻不會說法語,困難嗎?
KK: Of course, but I have no choice. Here I get financing. In other places, I don't. At the same time, it's more interesting than working somewhere I know too well. It enriches my perspective. I'm discovering a world that's so different, a language that's so complicated and rich! This is shown when I suggest -- in Polish of course -- a slight change in the dialogue. Everyone comes back at me, in France, with suggestions for twenty ways to change it.
答:當然困難,可是我沒有別的選擇,我的資金是從那裡來的;其他地區,都沒有這樣的機會。話說回來,這樣的工作也比在過度熟悉的環境裡工作來得有趣,他豐富了我個人的層次。我在發覺一個及不同的世界,法語是這樣的複雜濃郁!舉個例子,我在波蘭文劇本上隨便做個微調,法國這邊馬上可以引起熱烈反應,提供我廿個不同的翻法。
Q: You've created a European symphony during your three shoots...
問:你拍攝這三部片子的同時,創造了歐盟協奏…
KK: As you may have gathered, we speak French, English, Polish, and German. We've created an atmosphere in which everyone is comfortable. I have no problem being with people of different nationalities.
答:你應該已經感受到了,我們說法文、波蘭文、德文。我們已經為大家創造了一個環境,很愜意自在。我與不同國籍的人相處,沒有什麼不協調的。
Q: Do you feel European?
問:你覺得自己是【歐洲人】(意旨歐盟)嗎?
KK: No. I feel Polish. More specifically, I feel like I'm from the tiny village in the Northeast of Poland where I have a house and where I love to spend time. But I don't work there. I cut wood.
答:不覺得,我覺得我是波蘭人。說得更清楚些,我感覺自己來自波蘭東北小村莊,我在那裡真有個小屋,很喜歡在那閒呆著。可是我的工作不在那裡,我就砍砍柴。

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